1. Which Platform to Start?
David (Cuny) and Anybody Else with Relevant Experience:
Which platform would you develop on FIRST if you knew your program would
need to run on all three (Linux, DOS, Windows)?
Thanks!
ck
2. Re: Which Platform to Start?
On Fri, 09 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> David (Cuny) and Anybody Else with Relevant Experience:
>
> Which platform would you develop on FIRST if you knew your program would
> need to run on all three (Linux, DOS, Windows)?
Since you mentioned a _heavily_used server, you might just as well start with
Linux - preferably on your own network. (An old 486 makes a good server).
You'll have a lot more network tools to use under Linux than
under Windows, and Linux gives you more control: unlike Windows, it won't
require a reboot every time you make a minor programming mistake. Don't even
consider DOS.
Regards,
Irv
3. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by dcuny at LANSET.COM
Feb 09, 2001
-
Last edited Feb 10, 2001
CK Lester wrote:
> Which platform would you develop on
> FIRST if you knew your program would
> need to run on all three (Linux, DOS,
> Windows)?
I do almost all my development (including Win32 and Linux) in DOS. I'm more
comfortable with the tool set there. But that's not a compelling reason for
doing it.
-- David Cuny
4. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
Feb 09, 2001
-
Last edited Feb 10, 2001
Hi,
One option to look at for cross platform development is Free Pascal
(www.freepascal.org) using GTK (if you don't like using C or C++ that is ).
I have looked a little at GTK using Free Pascal and looks more complex than
say Win32Lib but if your dedicated you can produce top quality software.
Just look at The Gimp www.gimp.org for what GTK can do.
I also believe Gnome uses GTK???
Ray Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: Irv Mullins <irvm at ellijay.com>
To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Which Platform to Start?
> On Fri, 09 Feb 2001, CK wrote:
>
> > I'm running Win98/DOS and Linux (Mandrake 7.2 w/KDE2). I'm wanting to
start
> > with the lowest common denominator... get a basic app running and then
port
> > to the other platforms (if necessary). I'm interested in working with
Linux,
> > but I guess if it's easier to use DOS first I'll do that.
>
> You're developing a client/server app on DOS? Using Netware, or ?
>
> > Is there a cross platform EU GUI library out there? 
>
> No way. Further problems: simple GUI's for Linux like the GraphApp library
> don't offer the features (widgets) you need for general business apps.
Neither
> does Motif. GTK does, but no one has wrapped the hundreds of calls to
Euphoria
> yet.
>
> Your only real options at this point are to:
> 1. Write your clients in C using GTK...
> 2. Buy a copy of Kylix to do the Linux GUI and a copy of Delphi for the
Windows
> 3. Design your system to use a browser as the client, That would also
> eliminate any "porting" problems to Windows (or Mac/Beos, etc) and would
> take advantage of proven - and free - technology (Apache, cgi, browsers).
>
> The last approach is the one I'm taking right now, in porting a Eu/Windows
app
> that has been in use for a couple of years into a multi-user networked
app.
> So far, Euphoria seems to work nicely for the cgi portion of this system.
> Eu cgi's are faster than Perl, and easier to understand.
>
> Regards,
> Irv
>
>
5. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by kinz at peterlink.ru
Feb 10, 2001
Dear CK Lester,
> need to run on all three (Linux, DOS, Windows)?
If I need any machine - a 386 is my choice
If I need any platform - DOS is my choice
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
6. Re: Which Platform to Start?
sephiroth _ wrote:
>
> DOS? 386? Ha! Linux on a Pentium 133!
>
> kinz at peterlink.ru wrote:
> > Dear CK Lester,
> >
> > > need to run on all three (Linux, DOS, Windows)?
> >
> > If I need any machine - a 386 is my choice
> > If I need any platform - DOS is my choice
> >
> > Regards,
> > Igor Kachan
> > kinz at peterlink.ru
> >
Hi Igor,
I know that in St. Petersburg things are not as easy. However, as you
stated earlier, Euphoria runs excellent on a 386 DOS platform. I'm not
programming for the computer, instead I use Euphoria for solving my
little astronomically/physically related things, i.e. momentarily
animated GIFs.
(Some examples are here:
http://home.t-online.de/home/r.schr/Htm/Cntrpot.htm , excuse for the
german text, you could try to use 'bablefish' to translate the page in
some kind of funny english)
May I ask your for your special interests you handle on your 386-DOS
machine?
Have a nice day, Rolf
ps: I had a short look to you russian Euphoria page and translated it
via 'bablefish'. Impressive work!
7. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by kinz at peterlink.ru
Feb 10, 2001
Hi Rolf,
> May I ask your for your special interests
> you handle on your 386-DOS machine?
I use these machines not because of in Peter
things are not easy enough.
These machines allow me to see the work of my
or other program as under the rapid cinema.
I have two linked 386.
This is my powerful technology.
Ask Ray Smith. Yes, Ray ? (-: --->
If my program work well on a 386 - this is a
warranty of a very well work on a more fast machines.
And this program is the most available.
My special interests relates to comp. modelling of
the old technical systems with historical intentions,
but this work is not finished.
This work requires only non-standard GUI.
I'll post some my free stuff to RDS Archives later on.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
8. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
Feb 10, 2001
-
Last edited Feb 11, 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Which Platform to Start?
> These machines allow me to see the work of my
> or other program as under the rapid cinema.
> I have two linked 386.
> This is my powerful technology.
> Ask Ray Smith. Yes, Ray ? (-: --->
> If my program work well on a 386 - this is a
> warranty of a very well work on a more fast machines.
> And this program is the most available.
hmmm .... all I can think of is that I mentioned sometime awhile
ago that I devloped euAllegro on an old P120 and was happy doing
that for performance testing.
Is this what you meant Igor???? or have I totally missed something?
Ray Smith
9. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by Kat <gertie at PELL.NET>
Feb 10, 2001
-
Last edited Feb 11, 2001
On 10 Feb 2001, at 16:03, kinz at peterlink.ru wrote:
> Hi Rolf,
>
> > May I ask your for your special interests
> > you handle on your 386-DOS machine?
>
> I use these machines not because of in Peter
> things are not easy enough.
I know several people on irc in Russia, they do well in technical programming
jobs to
make $300 a month. and if they have a working 386, they are doing real well.
Strangely enough, they make more money than i do here in the usa, by $300, but
even
i have better puters. I wouldn't sell dos on a 386 short, if you don't need
hires graphics
manipulated quickly, like Internet Exploder, dos will do anything else: email,
web
browsing, networking, sound, etc., including lowres mouseable screens at
respectable
speeds. I was quite happy with my 386DX-40 for years, that was finally the thing
that
got me away from the C64. I'd guess finding a 486 with a 610meg hd would be rare
in
most "3rd world" countries, and some "2nd world" ones as well. Didn't someone
who
was on this list get run off cause he was repeatedly told to buy a better puter
on some
lil island nation, with $75/month income?
Kat
10. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by kinz at peterlink.ru
Feb 11, 2001
Hi Ray,
> that I devloped euAllegro on an old P120 and was happy doing
> that for performance testing.
>
> Is this what you meant Igor???? or have I totally missed something?
Yes and no, Ray.
Yes - I am happy to say you - your euAllegro works
well enough FOR ME too on my **technological**
hardware with 386-25, 33
But no.
See PowerBASIC site -- a comparison VB and PB dll compiler.
Does it say anything for you ?
Do you understand as does this
system - Win-95 + DirectX + DCOM + euAllegro + Eu app
work to move a sprite ?
Is it a ROBUST system ?
It like to A-bomb against a little sparrow, I think.
So my stable, well tested, familiar, simple choice is
386-387-25DX, 8M RAM, Oak 1M, 850M HD, CD-ROM,
VGA Hitachi, SB16, 1.44 FD, 33.6 modem
+
386-387-33SX, 4M RAM, Paradise 256K, 1.2 FD, 720 FD,
bw VGA Lcd Nokia
And I am happy with this very RARE now hardware,
because of I know well - *my* programs will run O'k
on any your machine and any your platform
with Euphoria - if you need *my* programs - he-he-he :-{)
I think, billions of people will be happy if they get
not expensive modern new machine with my
**techological** hardware parametres.
I don't need to change my hardware now. O'k ?
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
11. Re: Which Platform to Start?
----- Original Message -----
From: <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Which Platform to Start?
> See PowerBASIC site -- a comparison VB and PB dll compiler.
>
> Does it say anything for you ?
>
> Do you understand as does this
> system - Win-95 + DirectX + DCOM + euAllegro + Eu app
> work to move a sprite ?
>
> Is it a ROBUST system ?
>
> It like to A-bomb against a little sparrow, I think.
Yes I do understand what you mean.
I'm pretty sure you don't need DCOM for Allegro to work - that still leaves
a few levels!.
I guess the main reason I went the Windows route is that Windows 2000/NT and
further
MS OS's will not be able to handle DOS based graphics apps. So euAllegro is
my
"hopefully" long term games development platform.
Also the Allegro Linux port is exciting.
If Euphoria had better DOS connectivity a DOS version of Euphoria would be
possible as well ... that way you could have your cake and eat it to!
I'm looking at Free Pascal as a possible solution.
Ray Smith
One of the reasons
12. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by kinz at peterlink.ru
Feb 12, 2001
Hi Ray,
> I'm pretty sure you don't need DCOM
> for Allegro to work - that still leaves
> a few levels!.
Yes, but there is Win-95 + DirectX warning without DCOM.
> I'm looking at Free Pascal as a possible solution.
Remember Ray, Win-95's native hardware platform
is 386 + 486. (+ 486!)
I have not good but an acceptable **programmig**
environment (not for clients naturally and anyway!)
with your euAllegro on my 386-WIN.
But I have excellent and very comfortable conditions
for programming and real execution on my 386-DOS
in graphics mode 257, then I just *turn on delays*
for a more fast machine or *add* some new features
later on.
Inspect my simple alph_mic.zip for more detailes.
This style is very useful for me --
same as Euphoria's
_without "goto"_ a very simple discipline and
_without "declare sub"_ a very wise philosophy.
I don't _need_ another language and another machine and
I don't _want_ another language and another machine
for *my* programming tasks (see my mail to Rolf).
I love think and understand,
not click & drag & drop & (append or prepend) my copyright.
I saw Algol, Fortran, PL-1, Pascal, C/C++, Forth,
may be almost all Basics ... no, I didn't see
True Basic only (?) with matrix operators.
The best basic - USSR's BASIC 02 for the Iskra 226 machine
(some like WANG 2000) - aborted in 1982 or 84 (?) -
64K with all matrix, trigs, sorts, disk file system,
graphics objekts;
biltin editor, support plotter, mouse, printer, tape-drive
and some more ... hard to remember ...
Stop now.
Euphoria on a couple 386 was my choice in 1998,
is my choice now, and will be my choice,
thanks to Euphoria's only more and more high speed,
excellent for DOS on a 386, and only more and more
high compatibility of the Euphoria's platforms.
I program for 386,486,586,686,786,886 >>,
not for platform,
use "as is", if these *my* *ready* programs
are useful.
*Your* programs are your's programs.
And I am *not* a programmer for *clients* -
this point is very important for some Eu users -
remember this point, when you and (may be) your
clients read these my messages on this subject.
My own risk is just zero, if I program now.
But my programming practice may be
useful for you too, I think.
I am not going to tell lies for this list.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
13. Re: Which Platform to Start?
- Posted by kinz at peterlink.ru
Feb 13, 2001
Hi Ray,
> kinz at peterlink.ru wrote:
>
> > I have not good but an acceptable **programmig**
> > environment (not for clients naturally and anyway!)
> > with your euAllegro on my 386-WIN.
>
> Is the reason poor performance
> of euAllegro on a 386 ...
> or the hassle of to much other supporting
> software required?
I had done only very short test to see your
moving images.
I run DOS session to code any program -
with euAllegro or without euAllegro -
and this way is very fast and very comfortable
with ed.ex editor on my 386 machines.
I can run Eu without HD, from 360K floppy,
on 386-33sx 4M RAM - works very well in
all 4M RAM for DOS32 programming in SVGA mode 257
with 256 colors on VGA Hitachi under simplest DOS.
Try VB6 for education in this my simple
mode to run Hello World.
So, do you understand why I love only Eu now ?
I know well, you understand very well, Ray,
if you are in this list :)
Well, but execution under Win-95 is too
slow due to multitasking, I think.
Win-95 run another processes.
I don't know what to do to *safely* stop
or freeze these another system processes
for see only the euAllegro pictures now.
> Why I choose to go the path I did was for a long term future.
> Euphoria DOS32 graphics based apps won't work on WinNT and Win2000?
WinNT, Win98 native hardvare is 486.
See MS site - you can buy Win95 for 386 native hardvare
Win98 for 486 native hardvare
and Win2000 for 586+ native hardvare
No problem.
Then remember how many 386, 486, 586
there are in the World now
(at the least only with Win95,98,NT that run DOS O'k).
> This is my assumption ... is this correct?
>
> My theory is ... a lot of people have DirectX and Windows
> now and as time goes on more and more people will.
> This way by using Allegro (DirectX) this gives me a larger and larger
> "possible" user base.
>
> As you mention your not interested in distributing software ... so
> our aims are different and have decided to use different tools.
With my couple of 386 + Eu, I can program or teach
the kids for that *huge heap* of hardware above.
Only my problem is the interesting story, plot,
topick, subject for a new programming, not tool.
There are a heap of the free tools in The RDS Archives.
Take ASM for Eu and try speed of your next game. :)
Well, this CK Lester's and our (now) *subject*
is documented in Eu 2.2 docs too.
RDS's recommendation is DOS.
RDS is right, I think and I can say with Eu_Love from Russia.
O'k to finish this *subject* for robust programming ?
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
