1. New Windows library + WIPI
I'm writing a new Windows library, that will do what Win32Lib does now. Why?
First, because it's a challenge to start such a project. Also, because I think
Win32Lib is still running from the original design. A lot has changed, a lot has
been added. But there's still a lot of backward compatibility that makes the
library unnecessarily large and complex. It also has so much different routines,
some of which do the same thing. And there are different naming conventions for
constants and routines, that doesn't really make it look nice. I think it would
be nice, if Win32Lib (and also IDE) would be totally rewritten from scratch.
The new Windows library will be designed to be very modular, extensible, and
easy to use, both in code and with an IDE. I got the idea from my previous
projects (EuControls, LayoutPanels, Win32Dib, ...) which will become part of the
core functionality.
This means I won't be able to work on WIPI: Win32Lib IDE PlugIns. This would be
a plugin-mechanism for IDE. Looking at the code of IDE, and what I want to
achieve with WIPI, I conclude that IDE isn't designed to provide the necessary
functionality/extensibility for WIPI. Perhaps a limited plugin-mechanism could be
implemented, but not WIPI as I have it in my head. That was also one of the
reasons I decided to start the new Windows library. If the library is designed
(from the start) to support an IDE, and a plugin mechanism, I think a new IDE
will be a lot easier to write.
I appologize to Judith, for having to quit the WIPI-project, and I ask if there
is anybody who would consider taking it over, and would invest its time in a
project that is really necessary for IDE to grow stronger.
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
2. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Tommy Carlier wrote:
>
> I'm writing a new Windows library
My best wishes for your project. You have demonstrated a lot of skill
so I expect that the new library will be a success.
>, that will do what Win32Lib does now. Why? First,
> because it's a challenge to start such a project.
Yeah, new things are always a buzz.
> Also, because I think Win32Lib is
> still running from the original design.
Yeah, mostly.
> A lot has changed, a lot has been added. But
> there's still a lot of backward compatibility that makes the library
> unnecessarily
> large and complex.
Well...I suspect a lot has to with a not-the-best architecture that was used.
> It also has so much different routines, some of which do the same
> thing.
Eh??? Got any examples of that?
>And there are different naming conventions for constants and routines, that
> doesn't really make it look nice.
Yep. No standards were established originally so different people
contributed with diferent styles.
> I think it would be nice, if Win32Lib (and also IDE)
> would be totally rewritten from scratch.
Me too.
> The new Windows library will be designed to be very modular, extensible, and
> easy to
> use, both in code and with an IDE.
Now you're talking!
Modular. Extensible. Easy-to-use. Fast. Small. ... Pick any three.
--
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
3. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Derek Parnell wrote:
> Tommy Carlier wrote:
> > I'm writing a new Windows library
>
> My best wishes for your project. You have demonstrated a lot of skill
> so I expect that the new library will be a success.
Thank you, Derek.
> >, that will do what Win32Lib does now. Why? First,
> > because it's a challenge to start such a project.
>
> Yeah, new things are always a buzz.
>
> > Also, because I think Win32Lib is
> > still running from the original design.
>
> Yeah, mostly.
The original design wasn't bad at the time, but it wasn't designed to do what it
does right now.
> > A lot has changed, a lot has been added. But
> > there's still a lot of backward compatibility that makes the library
> > unnecessarily
> > large and complex.
>
> Well...I suspect a lot has to with a not-the-best architecture that was used.
>
> > It also has so much different routines, some of which do the same
> > thing.
>
> Eh??? Got any examples of that?
getText, getData and getCaption. getData and getCaption replace some of the
getText-functionality. Which is good: getText is sometimes ambiguous. I admit,
this argument isn't really valid. What I mean is that sometimes the name of a
routine isn't really clear.
> >And there are different naming conventions for constants and routines, that
> > doesn't really make it look nice.
>
> Yep. No standards were established originally so different people
> contributed with diferent styles.
>
> > I think it would be nice, if Win32Lib (and also IDE)
> > would be totally rewritten from scratch.
>
> Me too.
>
> > The new Windows library will be designed to be very modular, extensible, and
> > easy to
> > use, both in code and with an IDE.
>
> Now you're talking!
>
> Modular. Extensible. Easy-to-use. Fast. Small. ... Pick any three.
>
> --
> Derek Parnell
> Melbourne, Australia
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
4. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Tommy Carlier wrote:
>
> I'm writing a new Windows library, that will do what Win32Lib does now. Why?
> First,
> because it's a challenge to start such a project. Also, because I think
> Win32Lib is
Tommy:
Win32Lib is one, but not the only windows library that has been
written in Euphoria. A major amount of the code has been written
while trying to keep up with constant changes and improvements
that have come along in Euphoria interpeter.
I think that you are going to find that your design is going to
be restricted by the way that Microsoft Windows is designed and
the restrictions of trying to implement the code with Euphoria's
design restrictions. We all could have done a better job at writing
our code if we were starting from this day forward but you will find
that in 3 years from now you will have someone telling you that
they can do a better job of writing your code if they start from
that future day.
Bernie
My files in archive:
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/w32engin.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/mixedlib.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/eu_engin.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/win32eru.zip
5. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:36:38 -0700, Tommy Carlier
<guest at RapidEuphoria.com> wrote:
>I'm writing a new Windows library, that will do what Win32Lib does now.
>First, because it's a challenge to start such a project.
Is it going to be cross-platform?
Pete
6. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Bernard Ryan wrote:
> Tommy:
> Win32Lib is one, but not the only windows library that has been
> written in Euphoria. A major amount of the code has been written
> while trying to keep up with constant changes and improvements
> that have come along in Euphoria interpeter.
> I think that you are going to find that your design is going to
> be restricted by the way that Microsoft Windows is designed and
> the restrictions of trying to implement the code with Euphoria's
> design restrictions. We all could have done a better job at writing
> our code if we were starting from this day forward but you will find
> that in 3 years from now you will have someone telling you that
> they can do a better job of writing your code if they start from
> that future day.
You're absolutely right. Right now, I feel that Win32Lib is becoming a big,
monolithical beast. It has grown like that, and my library will also grow like
that. In a few years, people will begin noticing its restrictions, just like I'm
feeling the restrictions of Win32Lib right now. The first versions of Win32Lib
were not designed to do what it does now, and newer versions were built on the
original version. You have to admit that sometimes it's really necessary to
rewrite the whole thing, keeping the good things from the old library, but
totally redesigning the concept, implementing new ideas, trying to solve problems
people have.
My first idea was to build the new library on top of your Win32 Engine, because
it has all the Win32API definitions I need. But I think that Win32Engine is
already too big and too much influenced by Win32Lib. What I'm looking for is a
file or multiple files with all the definitions (constants, routines, structures,
...), preferably in a language-independent format (XML, Euphoria database,
text-format, ...) or in Euphoria. That would also be useful for other
libraries/projects.
I don't want to do this all alone. Of course I'll need a lot of help from all
you guys. I also appreciate new ideas, not only simple basic ideas, but also
radical ideas that might not be possible at first sight, but that might lead to
other ideas. All the ideas I get now will influence the first design of the
library. The better the first design is, the longer the library will be usable
and the longer it will last before people will reach the limits and feel
restrictions.
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
7. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Pete Lomax wrote:
> Is it going to be cross-platform?
I intend to focus on Windows. It's what I know best, and I don't want it to be
the common divisor of multiple platforms. That's the problem with Java and it's
GUI system(s) AWT and Swing.
But I don't say no, or never. The design I have in my head is pretty independent
of Windows and could probably be very easily ported to other platforms. But for
the moment, I only work in Windows. If there are people that want to work on a
Linux-version of the new library, just tell me.
I'm also looking for a name for the new library. I was thinking of Win4Eu. Post
your ideas for a name here, or on UBoard.
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
8. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
> My first idea was to build the new library on top of your Win32 Engine,
> because it
> has all the Win32API definitions I need. But I think that Win32Engine is
> already too
> big and too much influenced by Win32Lib. What I'm looking for is a file or
> multiple
> files with all the definitions (constants, routines, structures, ...),
> preferably in
Known as the hundreds of window include files !
> a language-independent format (XML, Euphoria database, text-format, ...) or in
> Euphoria.
> That would also be useful for other libraries/projects.
Tommy:
You will find that the size is because of the 1000's functions
structures, constants, and the comments, not the code.
Bernie
My files in archive:
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/w32engin.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/mixedlib.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/eu_engin.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/win32eru.zip
9. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Pete Lomax wrote:
>
> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:36:38 -0700, Tommy Carlier
> <guest at RapidEuphoria.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm writing a new Windows library, that will do what Win32Lib does now.
> >First, because it's a challenge to start such a project.
> Is it going to be cross-platform?
Will it be ready in time to be rendered obsolete by Longhorn? :)
Irv
10. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Hi, Tommy:
----------
> From: Tommy Carlier <guest at RapidEuphoria.com>
> To: EUforum at topica.com
> Subject: New Windows library + WIPI
> Sent: 12 sep 2004 y. 14:36
>
> posted by: Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be>
>
> I'm writing a new Windows library, that will do what
> Win32Lib does now. Why? First, because it's a challenge
> to start such a project. Also, because I think Win32Lib
> is still running from the original design. A lot has changed,
> a lot has been added. But there's still a lot of backward
> compatibility that makes the library unnecessarily large
> and complex. It also has so much different routines, some
> of which do the same thing. And there are different naming
> conventions for constants and routines, that doesn't really
> make it look nice. I think it would be nice, if Win32Lib
>(and also IDE) would be totally rewritten from scratch.
Oh, yes, but no one can rewrite something in EU *from scratch*
now, I think. About 1400 programs in the Archive, about 400
authors, more than 10 years of development -
where is that scratch?
You will just use all that experience and source code now,
to make the new things. But yes, a progress is possible,
be sure.
Good Luck!
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
11. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
- Posted by "Kat" <gertie at visionsix.com>
Sep 12, 2004
-
Last edited Sep 13, 2004
On 12 Sep 2004, at 9:26, irv mullins wrote:
>
>
> posted by: irv mullins <irvm at ellijay.com>
>
> Pete Lomax wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:36:38 -0700, Tommy Carlier
> > <guest at RapidEuphoria.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I'm writing a new Windows library, that will do what Win32Lib does now.
> > >First, because it's a challenge to start such a project.
> > Is it going to be cross-platform?
>
> Will it be ready in time to be rendered obsolete by Longhorn? :)
And yet still run on win95?
Kat,
still running dos apps too!
and remote php apps!
12. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Bernard Ryan wrote:
> Tommy:
>
> You will find that the size is because of the 1000's functions
> structures, constants, and the comments, not the code.
Yes, I know. My formulation is a bit wrong. I realize that any library that
tries to be a high-level wrapper for the API will of course be quite big.
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
13. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Igor Kachan wrote:
> Oh, yes, but no one can rewrite something in EU *from scratch*
> now, I think. About 1400 programs in the Archive, about 400
> authors, more than 10 years of development -
> where is that scratch?
You got me there. Of course I can't write it all from scratch. I'll first have
to copy a lot of code for the low-level API wrapper, and I'll probably steal a
lot from Win32Lib and other libraries ;-D
What I'm trying to achieve, is offering a high-level engine that is easy to use,
and very extensible. An engine with a plugin-system, that has built-in support
for editors and IDEs.
> You will just use all that experience and source code now,
> to make the new things. But yes, a progress is possible,
> be sure.
>
> Good Luck!
Thank you!
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
14. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Pete Lomax wrote:
> Will it be ready in time to be rendered obsolete by Longhorn? :)
Probably 
Longhorn is planned for 2006, and they might delay it even more.
Kat wrote:
> And yet still run on win95?
I'll surely try to. Of course I'll need people to test it on different
platforms.
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
15. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:16:11 -0700, Tommy Carlier
<guest at RapidEuphoria.com> wrote:
>Pete Lomax wrote:
>> Will it be ready in time to be rendered obsolete by Longhorn? :)
No I didn't, irv wrote that 
16. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Tommy Carlier wrote:
>
> Igor Kachan wrote:
> > Oh, yes, but no one can rewrite something in EU *from scratch*
> > now, I think. About 1400 programs in the Archive, about 400
> > authors, more than 10 years of development -
> > where is that scratch?
>
> You got me there. Of course I can't write it all from scratch. I'll first have
> to copy
> a lot of code for the low-level API wrapper, and I'll probably steal a lot
> from Win32Lib
> and other libraries ;-D
It would be amiss of me to not mention the licence notice that comes
with win32lib ...
--------------------NOTICE-------------------------------*
-- Software ID: win32lib
-- Version: 0.60.6 19/September/2004
-- Copyright: (c) 2000 /"David Cuny" and friends
-- All rights reserved.
-- Licence:
-- This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty.
-- In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages arising from
-- the use of this software.
--
-- Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose,
-- including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it
-- freely, subject to the following restrictictions:
-- 1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not
-- claim that you wrote the original software.
-- 2. If you use this software in a product, acknowedgement in the product's
-- documenation and binary are required.
-- 3. Altered source versions, and works substantially derived from the it,
-- must...
-- a) be plainly be marked as such,
-- b) not be misrepresented as the original software,
-- c) include this notice, unaltered.
--------------------End of NOTICE------------------------*
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
17. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Derek Parnell wrote:
> Tommy Carlier wrote:
> > You got me there. Of course I can't write it all from scratch. I'll first
> > have to copy
> > a lot of code for the low-level API wrapper, and I'll probably steal a lot
> > from Win32Lib
> > and other libraries ;-D
>
> It would be amiss of me to not mention the licence notice that comes
> with win32lib ...
>
> --------------------NOTICE-------------------------------*
> -- Software ID: win32lib
> -- Version: 0.60.6 19/September/2004
> -- Copyright: (c) 2000 /"David Cuny" and friends
> -- All rights reserved.
> -- Licence:
> -- This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty.
> -- In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages arising from
> -- the use of this software.
> --
> -- Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose,
> -- including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it
> -- freely, subject to the following restrictictions:
> -- 1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not
> -- claim that you wrote the original software.
> -- 2. If you use this software in a product, acknowedgement in the product's
> -- documenation and binary are required.
> -- 3. Altered source versions, and works substantially derived from the it,
> -- must...
> -- a) be plainly be marked as such,
> -- b) not be misrepresented as the original software,
> -- c) include this notice, unaltered.
> --------------------End of NOTICE------------------------*
Don't worry. Of course I'll mention that the new lib contains parts of Win32Lib,
and I'll include the notice.
--
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
Euphoria Message Board: http://uboard.proboards32.com
18. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
> --------------------NOTICE-------------------------------*
-- Copyrighted (c) 2000-4 Author Bernard W. Ryan w32engin.ew Verison 7.20
-- This program code is distributed to help you acquire the skills needed
-- to do Euphoria Windows programming in the Win32 enviorment.
-- It is intended for educationl purposes only, WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY;
-- without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR
-- A OR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
--
-- You have permission to use this code to learn Euphoria programming
-- provided that you AGREE THAT THE AUTHOR or any other sources of origin or
-- derivations have no warranty, obligation or liability for its contents
-- or use.
--
-- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK !
--
-- ANY USE OF ANY PORTION OF THIS SOURCE CODE IN ANY COMMERCIAL PRODUCT IS
-- SUBJECT TO PERMISSION FROM ALL COPYRIGHT OWNERS AND LICENSES.
--
-- In other words you must ask for permission of ALL of the copyright owners,
-- and give credit to RDS and EVERYONE that has contributed to this Euphoria
-- source code !
> --------------------End of NOTICE------------------------*
Bernie
My files in archive:
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/w32engin.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/mixedlib.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/eu_engin.zip
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/win32eru.zip
19. Re: New Windows library + WIPI
Derek Parnell wrote:
> Tommy Carlier wrote:
> > You got me there. Of course I can't write it all from scratch. I'll first
> > have to copy
> > a lot of code for the low-level API wrapper, and I'll probably steal a lot
> > from Win32Lib
> > and other libraries ;-D
> It would be amiss of me to not mention the licence notice that comes
> with win32lib ...
>
> --------------------NOTICE-------------------------------*
> -- Software ID: win32lib
> -- Version: 0.60.6 19/September/2004
ooooh. I'm lookin' into the future!
BTW, Sept 19 is my birthday! :)
-=ck
"Programming in a state of EUPHORIA."
http://www.cklester.com/euphoria/
