1. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
Is Euphoria powerful for business applications or just a play toy, not
competing with Visual Basic or Delphi or?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Smith [mailto:smithr at ix.net.au]
Subject: RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers
Euman wrote:
> From: "Ray Smith" <smithr at ix.net.au>
[snip]
> > but I dont believe you are giving people the full picture of what
RDBMS
> > can do.
>
> Why would i?
Because you are giving an overview of Databases vs Record Managers
and then saying how good record managers are.
>Have you even given tsunami a look Ray?
I looked at the tsunami record manager in the past but not since you
created your eu wrappers.
I'm not saying the tsunami record manager is bad in anyway at all.
> Just how much easier is this than the tsunami wrappers?
> 1) to learn
> 2) for speed
> 3) for security (any encryption routine will do, there are several in
> the RDS archive)
> *(Tsunami Pro has built-in encryption)
> 4) total control of your data
I listed (and hence agree) that there is more work in setting up and
mainting a RDBMS.
>From a programming point of view SQL can give you alot of flexibility
and power that record managers don't give you. And yes, it will take
more time for a developer to learn these things but that time should
be recoped in the long term by the efficiency of these powerful
tools and technologies.
> > The Pros for RDBMS
> >
> > A good RDBMS is "almost" always required for large and complex
> > projects.
>
> Is this true?
I beleive it's true.
>Can you see anything written useing euphoria's speed for large projects
>anyway?
I agree, I personally don't think Euphoria can handle large complex
systems.
That doesn't mean that I wouldn't use a database for a Euphoria
project though ;)
Just like in some cases record managers "could" be used in some large
complex systems.
Every case needs to be reviewed and a decision made based on the
features required.
The only reason I replied in the first place was that "I" thought
you gave a one sided view.
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
2. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
> From: Euman
> >
> > I doubt this is what Ray meant by 'security' (because it's not
> > what I'd mean if I mentioned RDBMS security :). Commercial RDMBS
> > (Oracle, SQL Server, etc) allow administrators to set up users
> > and grant permissions to them based on activity (SELECT, UPDATE,
> > DELETE, etc) and by table.
>
> Wouldnt this be the same or similar to writting custom
> in-code queries Matt?
Sorta. We're really talking apples and oranges here, though. By
commercial RDBMS I assume that you've got a client-server architecture,
multi-user, etc. A lot of what you've been talking about applies more
to the SQL engine under the hood of the RDBMS.
> You are only limited by your imagination and experience using
> Tsunami. I sure would like for you to look at tsunami and
> make suggestions ;)
I agree. In many ways it's similar to EDS, which I like for the (self
important?) reason that it's 100% Euphoria, extremely simple, and pretty
fast for what it does. I haven't taken too much time to try, but
Tsunami's key's and search stuff confuses me a bit.
> I can see that I need to complete the demo section of the
> wrapper docs an add a snippet that will allow certain users,
> certain rights to certain data. I can see that a seperate
> table would be needed for this which would be the same for those
> commercial grade RDBMS. I guess what Im saying is that I dont
> see need based on my limited knowledge of DB's to have a
> bloated RDBMS unless perhaps its a very large project
You're right. The full database management system is really only needed
when you need it. :) As for using a Btrieve-like record manager vs a
SQL-based relational database, however, it may come down to personal
preference, at least on the types of projects that are worked by the
people on this list. I'm personally more comfortable with SQL, so
that's what I tend to use. Apparently I like it so much that I've built
my own SQL engine to sit atop EDS. As you've noted, something similar
could be done with Tsunami.
> Also, a good idea would be to write a GUI that list users and
> rights. I suppose that would be likened to having database
> normalization and planning ahead.
>
> Matt, please let me know what Im missing here..
I dunno. Depends on what you want to do. I'm not sure what you mean by
'likened to having database normalization and planning ahead.'
Matt Lewis
3. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
euphoric wrote:
>
>
> Euman wrote:
>
> >>Is Euphoria powerful for business applications or just a play toy, not
> >>competing with Visual Basic or Delphi or?
> >>
> >>
> From my limited knowledge, I'd say that EUPHORIA is quite capable.
> We've also got translation for added speed (if that ever were an issue).
>
> >Ray wrote:
> >When you have 500 or 1,000 tables and 20,000 programs it can be
> >difficult to track down how an invoice number got deleted when it
> >shouldn't have.
> >
> >
> Not because of quantity, but because of algorithm.
>
> >Euman wrote:
> >Can you see anything written useing euphoria's speed for large projects
> >anyway?
> >
> >
> Yep. With a proper algorithm/approach.
>
> >Ray wrote:
> >I personally don't think Euphoria can handle large complex systems.
> >
> >
> I disagree a little bit. It's usually the programmer that can't handle
> the large, complex system. I do agree that some languages can't do
> certain things, or can't do certain things efficiently, but I don't
> agree that EUPHORIA has demonstrated itself to be one of these. Of
> course, I'm not programming huge apps for global corporations. I am
> creating many functional programs, however, much more efficiently than
> if I used any other language. That's what's important to me, because if
> my programs will look and work the same regardless of what language I
> use, I gotta go then with what I find good to use. The important thing
> these days to any programmer is ease of development.
>
>
> Ray, I'd be interested in why you think Euphoria can't handle large
> complex systems. I just did a little counting, and my old app has 519
> data files and 1106 programs. It's used to operate a doctor's office.
> The only problem I have found so far is that I don't know enought about
> Euphoria and Winli32 to convert the programs quickly.
I have tried Access and Visual Basic and couldn't get anywhere with
them.
With Euphoria I have found a wealth of information in the documentation,
the samples, and the forum, where I can ask a question and actually get
several good answers back.
So am I wasting my time doing this? So far it seems that everything is
working pretty good, especially the Tsunami record manager.
4. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
Isaac Raway wrote:
> Business applications are lightweight on the actual code. What's
> important is the database.
I don't agree with the "lightweight on actual code" comment.
Some of the smaller to medium sized systems I work on have hundreds of
thousands of lines of code. I wouldn't call that "lightweight".
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
5. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
euphoric wrote:
> >Ray wrote:
> >I personally don't think Euphoria can handle large complex systems.
> >
> >
> I disagree a little bit. It's usually the programmer that can't handle
> the large, complex system. I do agree that some languages can't do
> certain things, or can't do certain things efficiently, but I don't
> agree that EUPHORIA has demonstrated itself to be one of these. Of
> course, I'm not programming huge apps for global corporations. I am
> creating many functional programs, however, much more efficiently than
> if I used any other language. That's what's important to me, because if
> my programs will look and work the same regardless of what language I
> use, I gotta go then with what I find good to use. The important thing
> these days to any programmer is ease of development.
These types of discussions are always difficult ;)
The word I probably forget to mention from the start was "commercial".
What I'm interested in are languages and tools that can be used to
create large and complex applications that will be developed and
supported for many years to come. So my comments should be read with
this in mind.
Very complete and very complex software can be written in Euphoria.
I don't think anyone will doubt that.
Every language / toolkit have strengths and weaknesses.
Depending on what "types" of programs people are writing Euphoria
might be a great choice.
(I'm very happy you're developing good software with eu btw ;) )
"My" issues aren't just with Euphoria (it has some pretty obvious
omissions compared to other mature languages - threads and exception
handling to name just 2!) but also to do with the 3rd party libs.
Euphoria has a huge number of libs available from 3rd parties
(i.e. the eu community) but most of these just aren't up to scratch
for commercial usage.
It is possible for anyone to write their own, and fix bugs etc but if
you're in the business of writing commercial apps you just don't have
time to do these things.
I'm sure "it's possible" to do just about anything in Euphoria that
you can with any other language ... it's just in some(alot of?) cases
it will take alot more time and effort.
You can compare features of Euphoria to C and VB and Java and Perl etc
but it's just not a "true" comparision. These other languages have a
track record of being able to create large complex apps that are
supported and devleoped over a number of years.
I'm really happy for the people who develop apps in Euphoria.
For me it just doesn't have the features I need, this isn't meant to
put Euphoria down. It's just a simple fact. The set of problems
that Euphoria is good at solving isn't in the set of problems I want
to solve.
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
6. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
Euman wrote:
> > We've also got translation for added speed (if that ever were an issue).
>
> That translated code is nowhere near as fast as hand coded C source.
In general with purpose business applications (what I'm talking about)
... speed isn't all that important. The code only has to be fast
enough to keep up with the user!
> > >Ray wrote:
> > >When you have 500 or 1,000 tables and 20,000 programs it can be
> > >difficult to track down how an invoice number got deleted when it
> > >shouldn't have.
> > >
> > >
> > Not because of quantity, but because of algorithm.
You're quiet welcome to use record managers to implement huge data
systems.
It doesn't matter how good your algorthms are you'll always have
trouble keeping your database integrity intact. If you design it
into your database it will be kept intact by definition.
> In alot of cases yes, coders algorythm choice is very important
> Im certain hand optimized C source is faster in most cases than
> Euphoria.
Again speed is of little importance mostly.
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
7. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
Ron Austin wrote:
> I have tried Access and Visual Basic and couldn't get anywhere with
> them.
>
> With Euphoria I have found a wealth of information in the documentation,
>
> the samples, and the forum, where I can ask a question and actually get
> several good answers back.
>
> So am I wasting my time doing this? So far it seems that everything is
> working pretty good, especially the Tsunami record manager.
Everyone has different requirements for what they need.
If yours are meet with Euphoria and your happy with it then I'm happy
for you ;)
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
8. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
Isaac Raway wrote:
>
>
> Lightweight doesn't have anything to do with length of the code. What I
> mean, is processor demand. Business software should not be doing
> thousands of repetitions in loops, using up huge amounts of memory, etc.
>
> Of course, amount of memory varies depending on the system, but the
> processor rule I still hold to.
ooo, sorry, I misunderstood.
I 100% agree (except when you have thousands of users ;) ).
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
9. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
Hello Ray Smith,
I have found the many comments from various people helpful. I was really
interested in your comments. I visited your web site and saw Euphoria
products. If Euphoria isn't up to Java or other languages why do you
involve yourself with Euphoria? I am not trying to be a wise guy but am
really interested in what you had to say regarding "commercial" systems
and developing them in various languages. I like Euphoria, but wonder if
I'm wasting my time that might better be used to learn Java or?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Smith [mailto:smithr at ix.net.au]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 1:19 AM
To: EUforum at topica.com
Subject: RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is
Euphoria?
euphoric wrote:
> >Ray wrote:
> >I personally don't think Euphoria can handle large complex systems.
> >
> >
> I disagree a little bit. It's usually the programmer that can't handle
> the large, complex system. I do agree that some languages can't do
> certain things, or can't do certain things efficiently, but I don't
> agree that EUPHORIA has demonstrated itself to be one of these. Of
> course, I'm not programming huge apps for global corporations. I am
> creating many functional programs, however, much more efficiently than
> if I used any other language. That's what's important to me, because
if
> my programs will look and work the same regardless of what language I
> use, I gotta go then with what I find good to use. The important thing
> these days to any programmer is ease of development.
These types of discussions are always difficult ;)
The word I probably forget to mention from the start was "commercial".
What I'm interested in are languages and tools that can be used to
create large and complex applications that will be developed and
supported for many years to come. So my comments should be read with
this in mind.
Very complete and very complex software can be written in Euphoria.
I don't think anyone will doubt that.
Every language / toolkit have strengths and weaknesses.
Depending on what "types" of programs people are writing Euphoria
might be a great choice.
(I'm very happy you're developing good software with eu btw ;) )
"My" issues aren't just with Euphoria (it has some pretty obvious
omissions compared to other mature languages - threads and exception
handling to name just 2!) but also to do with the 3rd party libs.
Euphoria has a huge number of libs available from 3rd parties
(i.e. the eu community) but most of these just aren't up to scratch
for commercial usage.
It is possible for anyone to write their own, and fix bugs etc but if
you're in the business of writing commercial apps you just don't have
time to do these things.
I'm sure "it's possible" to do just about anything in Euphoria that
you can with any other language ... it's just in some(alot of?) cases
it will take alot more time and effort.
You can compare features of Euphoria to C and VB and Java and Perl etc
but it's just not a "true" comparision. These other languages have a
track record of being able to create large complex apps that are
supported and devleoped over a number of years.
I'm really happy for the people who develop apps in Euphoria.
For me it just doesn't have the features I need, this isn't meant to
put Euphoria down. It's just a simple fact. The set of problems
that Euphoria is good at solving isn't in the set of problems I want
to solve.
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
10. RE: RDMS Database's and/or Record Managers What good is Euphoria?
sixs wrote:
> Hello Ray Smith,
> I have found the many comments from various people helpful. I was really
> interested in your comments. I visited your web site and saw Euphoria
> products. If Euphoria isn't up to Java or other languages why do you
> involve yourself with Euphoria? I am not trying to be a wise guy but am
> really interested in what you had to say regarding "commercial" systems
> and developing them in various languages. I like Euphoria, but wonder if
> I'm wasting my time that might better be used to learn Java or?
> Jim
Hi Jim,
I no longer use Euphoria. For many reasons most of which I have
mentioned many times on numerous threads over the years ;)
I still read (and sometimes post) on the Eu list to answer questions
on any of the libs I have created and I still enjoy reading what
Eu'ers are up to ;)
I programmed in Euphoria on and off for a number of years and I
enjoyed that time. My interests have moved towards producing
commercial software (still as a hobby but maybe towards a future
business).
I came to the conculsion that Euphoria wasn't the language (and the
libs available weren't the tools) that I needed to produce the type of
software I wanted to create.
I have now settled on Python (http://www.python.org) ... that's just
my personal choice ... I'm not saying it will be applicable to what
others want.
Alot of people don't like Python for various reasons, just like alot
of people don't like any language for various reasons.
There is no one language (and tools - very important) that do
everything the best so it's up to each individual to look at whats
available and make a decision on what languag/tools features they
require.
I'm still yet to see any Euphoria software that "blows my socks off".
As mush as people complain about how bad langauge X verse Euphoria is,
nothing has been produced to prove it to me.
Most people tend to comapre the base language ... which is important
... but mostly ignore the tools and libraries available.
As some people have said, they are producing software with Euphoria
that they are happy with. That's really great, I'm very happy for
them.
It really all comes down to making a list of what language features,
tools, libraries, support you need now and what you "think" you might
need in the future.
If Euporia fills your needs great.
You have to be pretty careful because if you ask on the Euphoria
list can Euphoria do "xyz" or "is it best to use Euphoria for " ...
the answer will always be "yes"!
(and that's the same if you ask any similiar question on other
language centric lists)
Chossing a language and tools is a very major decision. In lots of
cases could mean the success or failure of want you want to achieve.
I hope that answers your questions.
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
