1. Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
- Posted by Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
Sep 06, 2000
-
Last edited Sep 07, 2000
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The alpha release of the Euphoria to C Translator is
now available from:
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com/v20.htm
(down near the bottom of the page)
There's a separate .ZIP file for each platform, but they
all contain the same large readme.txt file that I've attached to
this message for people who don't have easy access to the Web,
(or are simply too lazy to download the .ZIP 
)
There are no discounts, or free upgrades available to anyone
for this new product, but the registered version is only $29.00
for *all platforms*. It's available now with a credit card
from our site.
If you want to use your hard-earned MicroEconomy dollars,
now's your chance! - send a check for 29.00 minus what
you've earned.
This is just the alpha release. I expect there will be a
beta release and a final release over the coming weeks.
If you register for the alpha, you'll get the beta and final
releases free.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
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2. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Robert Craig wrote:
> If you want to use your hard-earned MicroEconomy
> dollars, now's your chance! - send a check for 29.00
> minus what you've earned.
Woohoo!
Despite my strong loathing of C, I just may do it. Time to count up my RDS
dollars!
-- David Cuny
3. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
AllRIGHT!!!!!! Wtg Rob!
4. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Robert,
Is it possible to obtain a copy of the Watcom compiler at all at this moment.
I would gladly register right now for the translator,but it seems pointless if I
can't use it.
Regards
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 3:25 AM
Subject: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
> The alpha release of the Euphoria to C Translator is
> now available from:
>
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com/v20.htm
>
> (down near the bottom of the page)
>
> There's a separate .ZIP file for each platform, but they
> all contain the same large readme.txt file that I've attached to
> this message for people who don't have easy access to the Web,
> (or are simply too lazy to download the .ZIP )
>
> There are no discounts, or free upgrades available to anyone
> for this new product, but the registered version is only $29.00
> for *all platforms*. It's available now with a credit card
> from our site.
>
> If you want to use your hard-earned MicroEconomy dollars,
> now's your chance! - send a check for 29.00 minus what
> you've earned.
>
> This is just the alpha release. I expect there will be a
> beta release and a final release over the coming weeks.
> If you register for the alpha, you'll get the beta and final
> releases free.
>
> Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
>
>
5. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Bob Springett writes:
> Is it possible to obtain a copy of the Watcom compiler
> at all at this moment. I would gladly register right now for the
> translator,but it seems pointless if I can't use it.
The Open Watcom people haven't released anything yet.
I'm not sure what their schedule is.
WATCOM 10.6 or higher has been around for 4 years.
Maybe you can still order it from somewhere on the Web,
or find it in a bargain bin at a store.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
6. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Hello Rob,
I downloaded the Eu to C translator today. I translated a small
program to c and looked at the c source code. I noticed that
all my variable names were renamed to things like _0 and _1.
Is this just a public-domain thing or will this happen with the
registered version as well? I couldn't find anything about this
in the readme.txt file. I don't have a C compiler so I probably
won't be registering the translator soon but I was just wanting
to see the C source. I could see it but it seemed rather
complicated when I couldn't recognize my own variables.
later,
Lewis Townsend
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7. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Hi Lewis,
I suspect that this is semi-deliberate, as Robert isn't intending for us to
use the C code directly. The C code is just a vehicle to get the Euphoria
code to an executable. We aren't really meant to see it. Given that, the
strange variable names and coding style are understandable. Also, its a way
of disguising (to a degree) on how the internals of Euphoria work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis Townsend" <keroltarr at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
> Hello Rob,
>
> I downloaded the Eu to C translator today. I translated a small
> program to c and looked at the c source code. I noticed that
> all my variable names were renamed to things like _0 and _1.
> Is this just a public-domain thing or will this happen with the
> registered version as well? I couldn't find anything about this
> in the readme.txt file. I don't have a C compiler so I probably
> won't be registering the translator soon but I was just wanting
> to see the C source. I could see it but it seemed rather
> complicated when I couldn't recognize my own variables.
>
> later,
> Lewis Townsend
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
8. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
But that makes no sense, given that you can have the original Eu code
auto-pasted
into the C code as comments.
Kat
On 8 Sep 2000, at 6:20, Derek Parnell wrote:
> Hi Lewis,
> I suspect that this is semi-deliberate, as Robert isn't intending for us to
> use the C code directly. The C code is just a vehicle to get the Euphoria
> code to an executable. We aren't really meant to see it. Given that, the
> strange variable names and coding style are understandable. Also, its a way
> of disguising (to a degree) on how the internals of Euphoria work.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lewis Townsend" <keroltarr at HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
>
>
> > Hello Rob,
> >
> > I downloaded the Eu to C translator today. I translated a small
> > program to c and looked at the c source code. I noticed that
> > all my variable names were renamed to things like _0 and _1.
> > Is this just a public-domain thing or will this happen with the
> > registered version as well? I couldn't find anything about this
> > in the readme.txt file. I don't have a C compiler so I probably
> > won't be registering the translator soon but I was just wanting
> > to see the C source. I could see it but it seemed rather
> > complicated when I couldn't recognize my own variables.
> >
> > later,
> > Lewis Townsend
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>
9. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
I suspect that is mainly as a debugging tool for Robert and other interested
parties.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kat" <gertie at PELL.NET>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
> But that makes no sense, given that you can have the original Eu code
auto-pasted
> into the C code as comments.
>
> Kat
>
> On 8 Sep 2000, at 6:20, Derek Parnell wrote:
>
> > Hi Lewis,
> > I suspect that this is semi-deliberate, as Robert isn't intending for us
to
> > use the C code directly. The C code is just a vehicle to get the
Euphoria
> > code to an executable. We aren't really meant to see it. Given that, the
> > strange variable names and coding style are understandable. Also, its a
way
> > of disguising (to a degree) on how the internals of Euphoria work.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lewis Townsend" <keroltarr at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
> > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
> >
> >
> > > Hello Rob,
> > >
> > > I downloaded the Eu to C translator today. I translated a small
> > > program to c and looked at the c source code. I noticed that
> > > all my variable names were renamed to things like _0 and _1.
> > > Is this just a public-domain thing or will this happen with the
> > > registered version as well? I couldn't find anything about this
> > > in the readme.txt file. I don't have a C compiler so I probably
> > > won't be registering the translator soon but I was just wanting
> > > to see the C source. I could see it but it seemed rather
> > > complicated when I couldn't recognize my own variables.
> > >
> > > later,
> > > Lewis Townsend
> > >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
10. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Lewis Townsend writes:
> I noticed that all my variable names were renamed
I have to do this so that your variables can't conflict
with my own variables. I just stick an underscore
on at the start, or sometimes I also add a digit.
The registered version is no different, but it inserts
your Euphoria statements as C comments throughout
the code, which makes it pretty clear what's going on.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
11. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
- Posted by Bernie <xotron at PCOM.NET>
Sep 07, 2000
-
Last edited Sep 08, 2000
I don't have a Watcom compiler and am not going to buy one to
test code.
Looking at the "C" code generated by the compiler/translator
it looks like the biggest stumbling block for moving the code
to a "C" compiler that most people have, is the calls to the
built-in machine functions which are based on Watcom code.
Unless you define these function specifications, ( or write
your own versions in standard "C" ) no one will be
able to aid you in moving to another compiler.
I'am afraid that it is a serious mistake to rely on built-in
functions in a dead compiler ( Watcom ). Borland 5.5 is a free
compiler available today to everyone, so is DJGPP, and many
others.
If you wait for WATCOM to be available it may be months and have
all kinds of restrictions on it's use.
I think that you are restricting RDS's and Euphoria's growth.
Bernie
12. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
- Posted by Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
Sep 07, 2000
-
Last edited Sep 08, 2000
Bernie Ryan writes:
> Looking at the "C" code generated by the compiler/translator
> it looks like the biggest stumbling block for moving the code
> to a "C" compiler that most people have, is the calls to the
> built-in machine functions which are based on Watcom code.
I don't know which routines you are referring to.
Most of the routine names that you see in the code
are my routines. They are not Watcom-specific routines.
> I'am afraid that it is a serious mistake to rely on built-in
> functions in a dead compiler ( Watcom ).
I don't forsee many enhancements to DOS in the near future,
so WATCOM for DOS32 should be fine. As for it
being "dead", tell that to the folks who are starting up
a major open source project for Watcom.
I hope to get around to Borland and DJGPP someday.
I hope Watcom will be downloadable soon. If it isn't
going to happen in a reasonable time, I'll target something else.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
13. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:43:09 -0400 Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET> wrote:
>Bernie Ryan writes:
>> Looking at the "C" code generated by the compiler/translator
>> it looks like the biggest stumbling block for moving the code
>> to a "C" compiler that most people have, is the calls to the
>> built-in machine functions which are based on Watcom code.
>
>I don't know which routines you are referring to.
>Most of the routine names that you see in the code
>are my routines. They are not Watcom-specific routines.
>
>> I'am afraid that it is a serious mistake to rely on built-in
>> functions in a dead compiler ( Watcom ).
>
>I don't forsee many enhancements to DOS in the near future,
>so WATCOM for DOS32 should be fine. As for it
>being "dead", tell that to the folks who are starting up
>a major open source project for Watcom.
>
>I hope to get around to Borland and DJGPP someday.
>I hope Watcom will be downloadable soon. If it isn't
>going to happen in a reasonable time, I'll target something else.
>
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
Actually, he's right.
Shipping a Watcom-specific .lib file was a big mistake.
Just for testing purposes, I took a Euphoria program translated to C using ecw,
and tried to compile it with VC++. 0 Errors. It compiled perfectly. However,
offcourse, ecw.lib was of an unknown format, Watcom format, so it didn't link in.
If you did what I did and produced ANSI-C euphoria.c and euphoria.h libraries
containing the definitions of internal functions (Machine functions), then users
could compile the Win32 source produced with any Win32 compiler they wanted, the
DOS32 source with any DOS32 compiler they wanted, etc.
For win32, my Euphoria.h includes windows.h, and uses only
a snippet of code from it to do DLL calling. windows.h is the library any Win32
C compiler has. For DOS I just use simple yet fast ways to draw graphics and do
other non-portable stuff, using ANSI-C code. So there are ways you can support
dozens of compilers out there, but offcourse your vanity will kill you. (Because
you'd have to let programmers see the source to Euphoria internal functions. Wich
is a good thing for portability if you ask me.)
Mike The Spike
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14. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
DOS32:
Why can't you just use a compatable object ( PE or COFF format )
file that can be linked with any compiler ?
Instead of using a Watcom library.
If you are using standard DPMI calls, the users can then link to the
extender of their choice.
Bernie
15. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
I tried the Eu 2 C translator for DOS yesterday; very neat, very neat
indeed.. Although I must say that I was a bit horrified by watching one of
my rotozoomers grow into a 690k beast (main_.c took approx 10 minutes to
compile).
Other weird things that occured:
* Wouldn't switch into graphics mode (using dos_interrupt()) when linking
it PMODE/W - only works with CauseWay.
* The results I got when calculating the FPS rate were all messed up (I
got values like 6 or 7, while the interpreted version says 69 or 70).
And for the next release; make sure to have an LCC-Win32 version of ecw.lib.
LCC is a great compiler that also happends to be FREE and available _as we
speak (umm.. ..write)_.
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16. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:09:47 GMT mic _ <stabmaster_ at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>I tried the Eu 2 C translator for DOS yesterday; very neat, very neat
>indeed.. Although I must say that I was a bit horrified by watching one of
>my rotozoomers grow into a 690k beast (main_.c took approx 10 minutes to
>compile).
>Other weird things that occured:
>* Wouldn't switch into graphics mode (using dos_interrupt()) when linking
>it PMODE/W - only works with CauseWay.
>* The results I got when calculating the FPS rate were all messed up (I
>got values like 6 or 7, while the interpreted version says 69 or 70).
See?
The translator is screwing up.
Mic, those ain't no bad FPS calculations, the FPS realy are that slow. On my
system, translated programs runs a crapload slower than interpretted ones. Even
QBASIC could beat a translated program in speed on my sys. And I can't understand
why, because everything compiles right, no errors, no DOS extender chrashes, the
executable produced is 100% accurate (except for some Euphoria bugs) yet it's
extremely slow.
And, you're lucky your rotozoomer compiled. On my system it just hangs after 20
minutes of waiting.
>And for the next release; make sure to have an LCC-Win32 version of ecw.lib.
>LCC is a great compiler that also happends to be FREE and available _as we
>speak (umm.. ..write)_.
Yeah!
Support LCC!
It's one of the most flexible C compilers for Win32 I ever saw. The speed is
good, compilation time is low, and the Win32 library is present. For Win32, LCC
is the choice of compiler to support. Cygwin does not produce stand alone
executables, and MingW shows a lack of functionality and is huge in size. LCC is
small and has a simple IDE. It's perfect.
Mike The Spike
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17. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
>See?
>The translator is screwing up.
>Mic, those ain't no bad FPS calculations, the FPS realy are that slow.
Umm.. No. I know what 6 fps look like. The program ran at full speed, but
the fps values got screwed up somehow.
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18. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
>I hope Watcom will be downloadable soon. If it isn't
>going to happen in a reasonable time, I'll target something else.
>
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
How about Turbo C?
19. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Matt writes:
> How about Turbo C?
1. Can it be downloaded and used legally?
2. Does it support 32-bit DOS, or is it limited to 640K?
If the answer is no to either of the above then I would rule it out.
The head of Open WATCOM got back to me.
It sounds like there's a remote chance that
binaries for WATCOM 11.0 will be downloadable
in 2 months. He's not sure about the legalities.
In 6 months he says there should definitely be
a free version for download.
I'm going to investigate DJGPP for DOS32,
and MingW, LccWin, and maybe Borland 5.5 for Windows.
Does anyone have any opinions on
which is better for Windows?
I need to estimate the amount of work involved in supporting
these compilers for use with the translator.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
20. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Robert Craig wrote:
> I'm going to investigate DJGPP for DOS32,
> and MingW, LccWin, and maybe Borland 5.5
> for Windows.
> Does anyone have any opinions on
> which is better for Windows?
"Better" is subjective. For me, it means:
1. Free
2. Small
3. Easy to use
LccWin32 fits all the above.
Since I'm used to being coddled by MS applications with their automatic
installs, I'm always a bit unsure what to do when confronted by an FTP site
full of files, as the MinGW site has. I found a nice (2.7 meg compressed)
MinGW download at:
http://cs-alb-pc3.massey.ac.nz/software/gcc.exe
(The link was at:
http://www.xraylith.wisc.edu/~khan/software/gnu-win32/ide-and-gui.html )
The author chopped a bit out to make it small (including splitting windows.h
into wingdi.h winuser.h), but it comes with a nice IDE, and is only a bit
over 10 meg decompressed). It might be helpful for people (like me) who just
want to
The Borland compiler would be my last resort - I had a lot of negative
experiences with it over the last couple of months, and it's a bloated
beast.
-- David Cuny
21. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
Robert Craig wrote:
> 1. Can [Turbo C] be downloaded and used legally?
Yes, it's in the Borland Archives.
> 2. Does it support 32-bit DOS, or is it limited to 640K?
I seem to recall it being limited to 640K, but I don't have the disk handy
right now to verify that.
There's also the Pacific C compiler, which is a free compiler. I *think*
isn't limited to 640 K, but I can't guarantee it. It's got a few quirks of
it's own, but you might want to have a look at it anyway - it's a small
download, and easy to install. I'm not sure it supports makefiles, though.
-- David Cuny
22. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at IX.NET.AU>
Sep 14, 2000
-
Last edited Sep 15, 2000
>> How about Turbo C?
>
>1. Can it be downloaded and used legally?
>2. Does it support 32-bit DOS, or is it limited to 640K?
>
It can be downloaded legally from the Borland Musuem site
http://community.borland.com/museum/ along with Turbo Pascal but they are
both restricted to 16 Bit programming. You'll also need to regesiter with
Borland (free, it takes a few minutes to answer some questions). Really
they are only useful for historic reasons. Mingw, LCC, Borland C++ and
Free Pascal and VPascal are all free to download and use and are better.
>I'm going to investigate DJGPP for DOS32,
>and MingW, LccWin, and maybe Borland 5.5 for Windows.
>Does anyone have any opinions on
>which is better for Windows?
>
I have installed and used all of the above and DJGPP must be in the top 2
DOS32 compilers (with Watcom) and I'd rate the others as:
1. Mingw
2. LCC-Win32
3. Borland C++
Mingw doesn't come with an IDE so you'll have to uspply your own.
The only reason I rate Mingw ahead of LCC-Win32 is that LCC is a C only
compiler (not C++). I don't know if this is an issue with the translator
or not???
Ray Smith
23. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
Sep 14, 2000
-
Last edited Sep 15, 2000
I wrote:
> [The specialized MinGW distro] might be helpful for people (like me)
> who just want to [...]
Urgh... This is what happens when I don't proof my stuff. I *meant* to
write:
The MinGW distro (http://cs-alb-pc3.massey.ac.nz/software/gcc.exe) might be
helpful for people like me who:
(1) Are too lazy to read manuals
(2) Want an easy to install distro with an IDE
(3) Don't want to waste space on a bloated distro
(4) Just want to create Windows executables with a minimum of fuss.
Heck, RDS could (in theory) even throw together their own custom minimal
version of MinGW if they wanted, that only included enough to compile
Euphoria, and discarded the unused libraries, didn't have an IDE or help
file, etc.
-- David Cuny
24. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
> >> How about Turbo C?
> >
> >1. Can it be downloaded and used legally?
> >2. Does it support 32-bit DOS, or is it limited to 640K?
> >
(I my opinion) DJGPP is the only DOS C compiler worth supporting. After all,
it *is* the best free C compiler available for DOS.
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25. Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Craig" <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: Announce: Euphoria To C Translator
> I need to estimate the amount of work involved in supporting
> these compilers for use with the translator.
Hi Robert,
I don't have a strong opinion on any of the ones suggested. My only criteria
would be that you're satisfied that its suitable and that I can get it at
zero or very little cost. I've no real interest in buying a C compiler just
as a vehicle to convert a Euphoria program into a faster EXE. Also, DOS and
Linux versions are not an important interest for me either. Hope this helps.
----
cheers
Derek.
