1. Associative Arrays
The discussion on this topic has been mildly interesting, but the
participants seem to be unaware that I did an implementation of
this concept some time ago - you can find it as assoc.e in
zeitlin.zip in the Archives - I'd appreciate it if someone would
look at it, and offer some criticisms and suggestions for
enhancement.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin at cyburban.com
2. Re: Associative Arrays
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>The discussion on this topic has been mildly interesting, but the
>participants seem to be unaware that I did an implementation of
>this concept some time ago - you can find it as assoc.e in
>zeitlin.zip in the Archives - I'd appreciate it if someone would
>look at it, and offer some criticisms and suggestions for
>enhancement.
Jeff, do you reall expect anybody would indulge you when you say in
the same breath, politely of course, the topic is not really worth it?
I dug it out. (Btw, burying eight disparate includes under unpromising
zeitlin.zip title was not terribly clever. I know, I made the same
stupid mistake many times myself...)
Your scheme is essentially the same as the one I am currently using,
except for the 'default value' complication. Unnecessary complication,
in my opinion, because I can't see why the default value cannot be a
normal item of a 'two sequence' list, or a value supplied externally,
when appropriate tests indicate it is required. But that's a minor
quibble. Another one: why would I want to sort my lists if you do not
give me tools to take advantage of it all. And just one more, because
I like doing things in threes: to my mind, it's certainly more logical
to define an empty list as {{},{},{}}, and your type check should flag
{} as a failure.
jiri
Fourth one: what about nested lists? No tools? - Any self-respecting
OO bullshit artist will need truckloads of them!
3. Re: Associative Arrays
- Posted by Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin at CYBURBAN.COM>
May 25, 2000
-
Last edited May 26, 2000
On Thu, 25 May 2000 00:01:10 -0400, Jiri Babor
<J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ> wrote:
>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>>The discussion on this topic has been mildly interesting, but the
>>participants seem to be unaware that I did an implementation of
>>this concept some time ago - you can find it as assoc.e in
>>zeitlin.zip in the Archives - I'd appreciate it if someone would
>>look at it, and offer some criticisms and suggestions for
>>enhancement.
>Jeff, do you reall expect anybody would indulge you when you say in
>the same breath, politely of course, the topic is not really worth it?
Not "not worth it", more like "don't really have enough time to
follow it". Or the rest of this list. Or most of my lists.
(I'm finding that with recent changes at the precinct and on my
railroad, I'm having to leave earlier to get there on time, and
getting home much later, after leaving later. I'm racking up
plenty of comp time, though (OT incurred in such a way that I
can't demand cash - not that I necessarily want to; I'm looking
forward to a long vacation later this summer...).
>I dug it out. (Btw, burying eight disparate includes under unpromising
>zeitlin.zip title was not terribly clever. I know, I made the same
>stupid mistake many times myself...)
... and someday, when I have time (sigh), I _will_ be taking a
second look at all of those, updating as needed, and reposting -
separately. And finish up a call-compatible graphics.e for
Linux. And rewrite a fairly complex QBASIC application in
Euphoria. And...
Yes, I sort of came to the same conclusion some time ago - but
couldn't really justify trying to change it without seriously
modifying the contents, which was not realistic at that point,
mostly due to lack of feedback (so I didn't know what needed
modification - if anything). I don't think I gave Roger the
name, though; I don't recall how I shipped it to him. I might
have called it something like "datstruc.zip" (assuming limitation
to 8.3) with a description that included a list of what data
structures were implemented. Or something like that.
>Your scheme is essentially the same as the one I am currently using,
>except for the 'default value' complication. Unnecessary complication,
>in my opinion, because I can't see why the default value cannot be a
>normal item of a 'two sequence' list, or a value supplied externally,
>when appropriate tests indicate it is required.
The idea that I was working with was that the internals should be
concealed from the user, and that every list be able to have its
own default, for when a particular key isn't associated. The
best way to handle that is to put the default value into the list
somewhere - but it can't be part of a key-value pair, because it
would mean that I have to have one "reserved" key in every list -
and I didn't want to do that; it would break one of the concepts
I borrowed. If you read the comments in the file, the concept
isn't purely borrowed from one language; I took concepts from
SNOBOL, REXX, and LISP when designing it. The default was lifted
from REXX; if I do an assignment FOO. = 'BAR', and request the
value of an otherwise-undefined FOO.BAZ, I'll get back 'BAR'.
There's no reserved name that I can reference to get that default
value, which leaves me with the ability to use _any_ name for
"real" data - I can set FOO.DEFAULT separately, and they will
have two different meanings. The same capability exists in
assoc.e.
As far as supplying it externally, I did provide a procedure that
allows the user to do so - alist_default(). Or am I
misinterpreting what you mean?
> But that's a minor
>quibble. Another one: why would I want to sort my lists if you do not
>give me tools to take advantage of it all.
Good question. Are there any others? Seriously, though, I
really don't recall why I did that; the best excuse I can come up
with is so that you can get an alist iterator that's sorted, and
then process the iterator. A rewrite will probably just have
alist_iterate_start(), alist_iterate_next(),
alist_iterate_sorted_start(), and alist_iterate_sorted_next()
that will return single key-value pairs. Of course, the question
of sorting is a difficult one anyway; can you decide which of any
two arbitrary objects is "greater" than the other? Right now, I
use whatever algorithm sort.e uses; if you have keys which would
cause sort() to blow its brains out, so will alist_sort(). If
you can think of tools that would be useful, either with the
present implementation or with the alist_iterate_*
implementation, I'd appreciate hearing them.
> And just one more, because
>I like doing things in threes: to my mind, it's certainly more logical
>to define an empty list as {{},{},{}}, and your type check should flag
>{} as a failure.
I remember thinking along the same lines, but hit an obstacle of
some sort when I was testing that made it necessary to allow an
alist to be an empty sequence, as well as a sequence containing
three subsequences. I don't recall what the problem was, but I
suspect that it had something to do with the fact that I didn't
want the user/programmer to need to know the internal structure
of the alist, which would mean that after declaring an alist
(assoc_list l), it would be a simple empty sequence if tested. I
could have required that a procedure alist_init() be called, but
I've never really been a fan of that sort of thing. As is, after
the first attempt to modify a list, it _will_ have the correct
structure - and attempting to retrieve from an alist that has
never been modified will have the same effect as retrieving from
a properly structured list with no keys and no default - so while
it makes my code (i.e., assoc.e itself) slightly more complex, it
simplifies things for the person using my code - which is always
what I strive for when writing libraries. If I could have
sensibly implemented alists with the same kind of internal
structure that I did stacks and queues, I would have - but an
initial attempt made the code so unwieldy for so little return
(essentially, all I would have gained was that alist_set() and
alist_default() could have been procedures instead of
value-returning functions) that I gave up on that particular idea
- an alist is not, after all, like a stack or a queue.
>Fourth one: what about nested lists? No tools? - Any self-respecting
>OO bullshit artist will need truckloads of them!
Well, I'd written this before OO became a big theme here on the
list, and I'm not sure I really understand some of the concepts -
I may be able to translate into basic OO-style code, but I'm
still _thinking_ procedural. If I'm making the correct
assumptions as to what you're implying by "nested list", it's
just an ordinary associative pair, where the value itself happens
to be an associative list - thus, you would do a retrieval and
assign the retrieved value to an alist variable, and then use
that variable as the alist to do the next retrieval on, and so on
for as many levels as you care to nest the lists. Updating the
nested list would necessarily require multiple stores - first
into the temporary alist that contains the most nested list, then
into the next level up, and so on through the top-level list.
What sort of tools would you propose?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin at cyburban.com
