1. The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Martin Nilsson <skrjablin at MAIL.COM> Mar 19, 2000
- 467 views
This is my first post ever to this list: it might be met with some scepsis (and that would be just fair: I may very well have missed something out). Anyway: this is what I have: After several months of intense thinking, I think I am almost finished designing a new language, named Kafka=A8, which I am going to implement as a "preprocessor" to Euphoria. However, it's syntax is different from Euphoria's, and it has kind of a different paradigm, so I wouldn't call it an "Euphoria preprocessor" or "Euphoria++": it's a new language (though cross- compatible with Eu). Kafka=A8 will have most of Euphorias features, and on top on this object-orientation is added, in an in my opinion simple and elegant way. Kafka=A8 also has some other features, most of them pretty useless, which are there mainly for the sake of completeness. ----------------------------------------------- Short description of Kafka=A8: It's *probject-oriented*. Probjects are mixtures between functions and OOP-objects. Sequences can be regarded as a special kind of probjects. Everything evaluates to something: perhaps Kafka=A8 can be viewed as some kind of remote Lisp-clone. There is virtually no special syntax for OOP: no classes or interfaces; just two built-in probjects. The transition between OOP-style- and none-OOP-style programming will be easy and almost unnoticeable. ------------------------------------------------ The problem is that for the moment, I am rather busy: It will take me at least a month to program a working first version. So my questions are: Is there any interest for this among Euphorians (or RDS); or do you feel Mike Nelson's and other people's OOP-libraries are simply enough? Are there any similar projects going on? Is Euphoria 2.3 on it's way? Will it have namespaces? If the answer is "yes", I might concentrate my energies on writing a good language description before doing the implementation; so everybody can read it and get some ideas. Otherwise, I prefer to release everything at the same time, because it is a rather unique language with many new concepts (probjects, cells etc) and I think= it will be better recieved if people can play around trial/error-wise with the Kafka=A8-compiler and some example programs. Martin Nilsson skrjablin at mail.com
2. Re: The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM> Mar 19, 2000
- 450 views
Martin Nilsson wrote: snip > >Short description of Kafka=A8: > >It's *probject-oriented*. Probjects are mixtures between functions and >OOP-objects. Sequences can be regarded as a special kind of probjects. >Everything evaluates to something: perhaps Kafka=A8 can be viewed as some >kind of remote Lisp-clone. > >There is virtually no special syntax for OOP: no classes or interfaces; >just two built-in probjects. >The transition between OOP-style- and none-OOP-style programming will be >easy and almost unnoticeable. > snip >So my questions are: > >Is there any interest for this among Euphorians (or RDS); or do you feel >Mike Nelson's and other people's OOP-libraries are simply enough? > >Are there any similar projects going on? As far as I am concerned, the more the merrier. >Is Euphoria 2.3 on it's way? Will it have namespaces? Rob hints that it will, but who knows what that means and when it will come.= If anybody else has heard more hints on time than I have, I would welcome the knowledge. >If the answer is "yes", > I might concentrate my energies on writing a good language description > before doing the implementation; so everybody can read it and get some > ideas. I would always recommend writing a good language description before implementation. That way, you can compare what you have done with what you intended and trim one or the other, but at least you will know where you were originally headed when you get buried down in the "probject" >Otherwise, > I prefer to release everything at the same time, because it is a rather > unique language with many new concepts (probjects, cells etc) and I thin= k > it will be better recieved if people can play around trial/error-wise > with the Kafka=A8-compiler and some example programs. If the language desciption comes out first, at least you can get a comment or three before committing to code. There might be one or two dead-ends that could be avoided with more than one set of eyes on the design. I know that a lot of people on the list would prefer the whole ball of wax o= r even the compiler without the language description. I have yet to see a really clean project that was coded first and designed later. I have seen some interesting "proof of concept" code done that way, but something as large as a language has way too many gotcha's for that kind of "only real men can code without a design" macho. Everett L.(Rett) Williams rett at gvtc.com
3. Re: The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Irv Mullins <irv at ELLIJAY.COM> Mar 19, 2000
- 444 views
- Last edited Mar 20, 2000
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, > Martin Nilsson wrote: > > snip > > > >Short description of Kafka¨: > > > >It's *probject-oriented*. Probjects are mixtures between functions and > >OOP-objects. Sequences can be regarded as a special kind of probjects. > >Everything evaluates to something: perhaps Kafka¨ can be viewed as some > >kind of remote Lisp-clone. > > > >There is virtually no special syntax for OOP: no classes or interfaces; > >just two built-in probjects. > >The transition between OOP-style- and none-OOP-style programming will be > >easy and almost unnoticeable. > > > snip > >So my questions are: > > > >Is there any interest for this among Euphorians (or RDS); or do you feel > >Mike Nelson's and other people's OOP-libraries are simply enough? Ideas are always welcome. I suggest you write some example code before you even begin writing the compiler/interpreter, just so we can grasp the concept. That way we can compare "kafka" with existing languages, and see the benefits of this new language. Doing this will also allow you to think carefully about the implementation of each language structure, and probably lead to a cleaner design. Regards, Irv
4. Re: The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Michael Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Mar 19, 2000
- 466 views
- Last edited Mar 20, 2000
Martin Nilsson wrote: <snip> After several months of intense thinking, I think I am almost finished designing a new language, named Kafka¨, which I am going to implement as a "preprocessor" to Euphoria . . . Short description of Kafka¨: It's *probject-oriented*. Probjects are mixtures between functions and OOP-objects. Sequences can be regarded as a special kind of probjects. Everything evaluates to something: perhaps Kafka¨ can be viewed as some kind of remote Lisp-clone. There is virtually no special syntax for OOP: no classes or interfaces; just two built-in probjects. The transition between OOP-style- and none-OOP-style programming will be easy and almost unnoticeable . . . Martin--I think this is fascinating and I'd love to hear more about it! I believe that getting a good design together and posting it before coding could be very benificial, though I admit I didn't do it that way with Object Euphoria--I designed before coding but only posted completed versions. My Object Euphoria is quite Java-like--your Kafka sounds like it will have an entirely different focus. Perhaps its somewhat LISP-like nature will make it strong in areas where OE is weak and vice-versa. Personally, I'd love to see multiple viable OOP systems for Euphoria. Of course, it would be easier for all of us OOP enthusiasts if Rob implements namespaces and structures. My advice is to work out a good design and go for it! -- Mike Nelson
5. Re: The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Bernie Ryan <LockCityData at CS.COM> Mar 20, 2000
- 442 views
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:00:04 -0800, Michael Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote: >My Object Euphoria is quite Java-like Mike: I am not a java expert but I know that you are interested in oop and java The java VM is a DLL in win32 and a shared library in unix. The VM can be launched from win32 and unix. Why couldn't you write a special public java class that would be a interface with Euphoria. Once the VM is launched the byte code for the VM would suppled by Euphoria. This would then make it possible to use the java graphics from Euphoria. Bernie
6. Re: The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Michael Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Mar 21, 2000
- 455 views
Bernie Ryan Wrote: > Mike: > > I am not a java expert but I know that you are interested in oop and java > > The java VM is a DLL in win32 and a shared library in unix. The VM can > > be launched from win32 and unix. > > Why couldn't you write a special public java class that would be a > > interface with Euphoria. Once the VM is launched the byte code for > > the VM would suppled by Euphoria. This would then make it possible to > > use the java graphics from Euphoria. > Bernie, This will be added to my Object Euphoria to do list--no promises when it will happen as it requires some high-level knowledge of Java I do not yet possess. My current project is taking all of my free time--an OE wrapper for Rob's database.e which will provide full relational DB capabilities. -- Mike
7. Re: The "perfect" language...
- Posted by Martin Nilsson <skrjablin at MAIL.COM> Mar 22, 2000
- 473 views
Thanks for the positive response on Kafka! I'll do as you suggested and post some kind of document in a couple of days. I've realized that I really need your comments: only in the past few days I've found several problems, and have thought I found a solution, and then found a new problem and so on: Right now I believe the concept will work; but that's just a feeling of mine. I'll throw away my current design notes and create a VERY DETAILED description of the language and how to implement it, and post it to the list, before I do anything else. Martin Nilsson