1. direction
--=====================_953375832==_
I've attached a file that outlines one direction that software
development around Euphoria might go.
--=====================_953375832==_
2. Re: direction
bfurniss wrote:
> I've attached a file that outlines one
> direction that software development
> around Euphoria might go.
Did you have any applications in mind for these libraries? Personally, I've
found that it's most useful to write libraries that solve *specific*
problems.
-- David Cuny
3. Re: direction
----- Original Message -----
From: "bfurniss" <bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 6:32 AM
Subject: direction
>
> I've attached a file that outlines one direction that software
> development around Euphoria might go.
I can't understand why this was sent as an attachment, but whatever...
I need to bite my tongue a bit and comment on the 32bits per ascii byte of
storage. While i do like the idea for the options it gives, if it's possible
to specify a smaller set of options to reduce the memory requirements for
keeping data in memory, i'd like that too. Right now, if i wish to keep a
50Meg file in a sequence in memory all the time, Eu wants 200Meg for it,
then i add in 64Meg of windoze, and another 32meg for applications to play
in, and i must have 296Meg of ram on the puter. <gasp> I have the 96Meg, but
adding a 256Meg module is simply out of the question for the foreseeable
future. Seems my only option is grabbing memory, and peeking and poking the
8bits of ascii?
Kat
4. Re: direction
At 01:50 PM 3/17/00 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "bfurniss" <bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ>
>To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
>Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 6:32 AM
>Subject: direction
>
>
>>
>> I've attached a file that outlines one direction that software
>> development around Euphoria might go.
>
>I can't understand why this was sent as an attachment, but whatever...
>
Don't worry , just a general message to ALL , until I can tell who's
interested in what I'm attempting with Euphoria.
A little software , occassionally ,might be more appropriate.
>I need to bite my tongue a bit and comment on the 32bits per ascii byte of
>storage. While i do like the idea for the options it gives, if it's possible
>to specify a smaller set of options to reduce the memory requirements for
>keeping data in memory, i'd like that too. Right now, if i wish to keep a
>50Meg file in a sequence in memory all the time, Eu wants 200Meg for it,
>then i add in 64Meg of windoze, and another 32meg for applications to play
>in, and i must have 296Meg of ram on the puter. <gasp> I have the 96Meg, but
>adding a 256Meg module is simply out of the question for the foreseeable
>future. Seems my only option is grabbing memory, and peeking and poking the
>8bits of ascii?
>
>Kat
I hadn't realized that Euphoria stored ASCII like that , and yet you
don't have a selection of good fonts in most any graphics_mode( ).
Peek and Poke don't use machine.e routines therefore they're going to
be pretty portable.
Make a procedure to do this and tuck the thing away in an include file
somewhere until you get an answer from somewhere.
Of course TYPE checking might determine how many bits are being used
in any particular instance.
5. Re: direction
- Posted by bfurniss <bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ>
Mar 18, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 19, 2000
At 09:43 AM 3/17/00 -0800, you wrote:
>bfurniss wrote:
>
>> I've attached a file that outlines one
>> direction that software development
>> around Euphoria might go.
>
>Did you have any applications in mind for these libraries? Personally, I've
>found that it's most useful to write libraries that solve *specific*
>problems.
>
>-- David Cuny
>
Well these routines have many potential applications , see earlier file
west.zip to get an idea.
I'm interested in utilizing mathematics with sequences , in as effecient
a way as possible ; with most any size sequence. Something that Euphoria
appears to be quite good at already.
However many machine based methods already exist for handling sequences
therefore I'm attempting to merge the two and use particular methods from
one with the other in the most economical way possible.
The other , general , interest I have is in software for Mathematics;
similar to yourself ; I assume.
6. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 18, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 19, 2000
bfurniss wrote:
> I'm interested in utilizing mathematics with sequences , in as effecient
> a way as possible ; with most any size sequence. Something that Euphoria
> appears to be quite good at already.
> However many machine based methods already exist for handling sequences
> therefore I'm attempting to merge the two and use particular methods from
> one with the other in the most economical way possible.
>
> The other , general , interest I have is in software for Mathematics;
> similar to yourself ; I assume.
Not to speak for Mr. Cuny, but if I had to pick one thing that I thought
Euphoria was ill-suited for, it would be high performance mathematical
work. Symbolic manipulation, yes. Algorithmic representation, yes.
High performance math on long sequences of numbers...I don't think so.
Matrix manipulation...maybe...depends on scale. Euphoria is interpretive, or
compile and go if you wish. That doesn't lend itself to major optimization of
loops or to parallel execution( the only place where most newer mathematical
work is going). In fact, almost none of the work that I have seen done in
Euphoria is oriented towards heavy duty math of any variety. Euphoria is
a finely tuned mix of flexibility and speed, for an interpretive language, that
is.
Now, if someone were to come up with a true compiler for heavy duty
stuff to be fed to...another kettle of fish entirely.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
7. Re: direction
You may be interested in the J language http://www.jsoftware.com/
It's more expensive than Euphoria, but you get a lot for the price.
Tom Arneson
Duri Indoneisa
-----Original Message-----
From: bfurniss [SMTP:bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ]
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 07:26
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: direction
At 09:43 AM 3/17/00 -0800, you wrote:
>bfurniss wrote:
>
>> I've attached a file that outlines one
>> direction that software development
>> around Euphoria might go.
>
>Did you have any applications in mind for these libraries? Personally, I've
>found that it's most useful to write libraries that solve *specific*
>problems.
>
>-- David Cuny
>
Well these routines have many potential applications , see earlier file
west.zip to get an idea.
I'm interested in utilizing mathematics with sequences , in as effecient
a way as possible ; with most any size sequence. Something that Euphoria
appears to be quite good at already.
However many machine based methods already exist for handling sequences
therefore I'm attempting to merge the two and use particular methods from
one with the other in the most economical way possible.
The other , general , interest I have is in software for Mathematics;
similar to yourself ; I assume.
8. Re: direction
----- Original Message -----
From: "arneson" <arneson at PKB.MEGA.NET.ID>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: direction
> You may be interested in the J language http://www.jsoftware.com/
>
> It's more expensive than Euphoria, but you get a lot for the price.
Yeas, it is expensive,, at least for a beginner language with no online docs
to preview.
Heh, Webwasher washed all the links away on that page! I got a blue-yellow
banner and a copyright notice, until i refreshed with Webwasher off.
I guess you had to be here to see it. 
Kat
9. Re: direction
On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Tom Arneson wrote:
> You may be interested in the J language http://www.jsoftware.com/
> It's more expensive than Euphoria, but you get a lot for the price.
Maybe. Maybe not. From visiting their website, I could only see a
few examples which appeared to be in the "immediate execution"
mode - type something in, get an answer back, not unlike the old BASIC's
C:>PRINT 2 * 4
C:>8
If you have some readable programs written in J, I would be interested in
seeing them. Even better, you should give the folks that are trying to sell
J a clue: without screen shots, on-line documentation, and some idea of
what makes this language worth $295 (or $895) I can't even be bothered
to download the free trial.
Irv
10. Re: direction
At 05:49 AM 3/19/00 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "arneson" <arneson at PKB.MEGA.NET.ID>
>To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 10:30 PM
>Subject: Re: direction
>
>
>> You may be interested in the J language http://www.jsoftware.com/
>>
>> It's more expensive than Euphoria, but you get a lot for the price.
>
>Yeas, it is expensive,, at least for a beginner language with no online docs
>to preview.
>
>Heh, Webwasher washed all the links away on that page! I got a blue-yellow
>banner and a copyright notice, until i refreshed with Webwasher off.
>
>I guess you had to be here to see it.
>Kat
What exactly is the J language ? Java ?
11. Re: direction
On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:00:45 -0500, bfurniss
<bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ> wrote:
> What exactly is the J language ? Java ?
No, for all intents and purposes, it's APL with keywords instead
of hieroglyphics.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin at cyburban.com
12. Re: direction
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:00:45 -0500, bfurniss
><bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ> wrote:
>
>> What exactly is the J language ? Java ?
>
>No, for all intents and purposes, it's APL with keywords instead
>of hieroglyphics.
>
Now, I wouldn't sneer at that idea. One of my old IBM buddies worked with
the author of APL and was very good with it. He said, and I believe him,
that APL could produce some of the most compact code in the world. He
also called it a write-only language. He said that there were some perfectly
good, working programs that neither he nor anybody else that he knew had
been able to figure out and they consisted of only one line of code.
So APL without the hieroglyphics might be a quite wonderful language, but
not at that price.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
13. Re: direction
Here are some 'one liners' from the J dictionary. J is even more powerful
than APL and all ASCII to boot. I notice that more experienced J programmers
tend to write difficult to understand 'statements' for reasons of brevity
and bravura mostly but there is a facility to automatically parse these
wicked one liners. All this terseness is still a small price to pay for
autolooping constructs which are probably easily implemented in Euphoria
which if done even to a small and intelligent degree would probably make
Euphoria a much more enticing language to use. Anything that can not be done
with the autolooping constructs is apt to be slow however making J probably
unsuitable for game programming at this time. www.jsoftware.com
Jay Daulton
m0=: /:~ Sort the array y in ascending order
m1=: \:~ Sort the array y in descending order
m2=: /:~"_1 Sort the items of array y ascending
d3=: /:@:{ { [ Sort indices x according to y
d4=: ]/:{"1 Sort table y according to column x
d5=: \: at [`(/: at [) @. ] Grade x up if y is 1 and down if y is 0
d6=: \:~ at [`(/:~ at [) @. ] Sort up or down (Try literal argument)
d7=: /:~ Sort y according to x
d0=: -:&(/:~) Are x and y permutations of each other?
m1=: /:~-:i.@# Is y a permutation vector?
m2=: -:-@|: Is y antisymmetric?
m3=: -:|: Is y symmetric?
m4=: [:+./[:*./]=/0 1"_ Are all atoms of Boolean list y equal?
m5=: *./ .= +./ Are all atoms of Boolean list y equal?
m6=: *./ .= *./ Are all atoms of Boolean list y equal?
d7=: -. at (] <:/ .>: >.@] , [)"1 Is y in the half open on the right interval
x and is it an integer?
d8=: e. Is list x a row of array y?
m9=: *./ at (= >./\) Are columns of y in ascending order?
m10=: *./ at (= <./\) Are columns of y in descending order?
m11=: >./=<./ Are atoms of numerical list y equal?
m12=: *./ +. -. at (+./) Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
m13=: *./ = +./ Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
m14=: *./ at (= {.) Are atoms of list y equal?
m15=: 0:=#|+/ Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
m16=: *./ at (#1&|.) Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
m17=: ([:,:0:,#)-: v19"_ rxmatch ] Is y a legal J name?
d18=: rxmatch=: 17!:0 '' to get rxmatch
v19=: '[[:alpha:]][[:alnum:]_]* '"_ 'regex' to get alpha: and alnum:
-----Original Message-----
From: Everett Williams [mailto:rett at GVTC.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 9:44 PM
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: direction
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:00:45 -0500, bfurniss
><bfurniss at IHUG.CO.NZ> wrote:
>
>> What exactly is the J language ? Java ?
>
>No, for all intents and purposes, it's APL with keywords instead
>of hieroglyphics.
>
Now, I wouldn't sneer at that idea. One of my old IBM buddies worked with
the author of APL and was very good with it. He said, and I believe him,
that APL could produce some of the most compact code in the world. He
also called it a write-only language. He said that there were some perfectly
good, working programs that neither he nor anybody else that he knew had
been able to figure out and they consisted of only one line of code.
So APL without the hieroglyphics might be a quite wonderful language, but
not at that price.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
14. Re: direction
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, you wrote:
> Here are some 'one liners' from the J dictionary. J is even more powerful
> than APL and all ASCII to boot. I notice that more experienced J programmers
> tend to write difficult to understand 'statements' for reasons of brevity
> and bravura mostly but there is a facility to automatically parse these
> wicked one liners. All this terseness is still a small price to pay for
> autolooping constructs which are probably easily implemented in Euphoria
> which if done even to a small and intelligent degree would probably make
> Euphoria a much more enticing language to use. Anything that can not be done
> with the autolooping constructs is apt to be slow however making J probably
> unsuitable for game programming at this time. www.jsoftware.com
>
> Jay Daulton
>
> m0=: /:~ Sort the array y in ascending order
> m1=: \:~ Sort the array y in descending order
> m2=: /:~"_1 Sort the items of array y ascending
> d3=: /:@:{ { [ Sort indices x according to y
> d4=: ]/:{"1 Sort table y according to column x
> d5=: \: at [`(/: at [) @. ] Grade x up if y is 1 and down if y is 0
> d6=: \:~ at [`(/:~ at [) @. ] Sort up or down (Try literal argument)
> d7=: /:~ Sort y according to x
>
>
> d0=: -:&(/:~) Are x and y permutations of each other?
> m1=: /:~-:i.@# Is y a permutation vector?
> m2=: -:-@|: Is y antisymmetric?
> m3=: -:|: Is y symmetric?
> m4=: [:+./[:*./]=/0 1"_ Are all atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> m5=: *./ .= +./ Are all atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> m6=: *./ .= *./ Are all atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> d7=: -. at (] <:/ .>: >.@] , [)"1 Is y in the half open on the right interval
> x and is it an integer?
> d8=: e. Is list x a row of array y?
> m9=: *./ at (= >./\) Are columns of y in ascending order?
> m10=: *./ at (= <./\) Are columns of y in descending order?
> m11=: >./=<./ Are atoms of numerical list y equal?
> m12=: *./ +. -. at (+./) Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> m13=: *./ = +./ Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> m14=: *./ at (= {.) Are atoms of list y equal?
> m15=: 0:=#|+/ Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> m16=: *./ at (#1&|.) Are atoms of Boolean list y equal?
> m17=: ([:,:0:,#)-: v19"_ rxmatch ] Is y a legal J name?
> d18=: rxmatch=: 17!:0 '' to get rxmatch
...
Ooops! How did they let that actual _word_ (rxmatch) thru?
If it weren't for that little slip, "J" would certainly qualify as the world's
most unreadable (computer) language.
Irv - wondering if you made all this up as a joke. If so, congratulations -
it's a good one.
15. Re: direction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Daulton" <JayD at ADVANCEDBIONICS.COM>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: direction
<snip>
> m0=: /:~ Sort the array y in ascending order
> m1=: \:~ Sort the array y in descending order
> m2=: /:~"_1 Sort the items of array y ascending
> d3=: /:@:{ { [ Sort indices x according to y
> d4=: ]/:{"1 Sort table y according to column x
> d5=: \: at [`(/: at [) @. ] Grade x up if y is 1 and down if y is 0
> d6=: \:~ at [`(/:~ at [) @. ] Sort up or down (Try literal argument)
> d7=: /:~ Sort y according to x
Goddess! I don't know what was supposed to be after the "d#=:" up there, but
it looks like a Perl script trashed the character lookup tables!
Kat
16. Re: direction
Irv Mullins wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, you wrote:
>> Here are some 'one liners' from the J dictionary. J is even more powerful
>> than APL and all ASCII to boot.
snip
>>
>> Jay Daulton
>>
>> m0=: /:~ Sort the array y in ascending order
>> m1=: \:~ Sort the array y in descending order
>> m2=: /:~"_1 Sort the items of array y ascending
>> d3=: /:@:{ { [ Sort indices x according to y
>> d4=: ]/:{"1 Sort table y according to column x
>> d5=: \: at [`(/: at [) @. ] Grade x up if y is 1 and down if y is 0
>> d6=: \:~ at [`(/:~ at [) @. ] Sort up or down (Try literal argument)
>> d7=: /:~ Sort y according to x
>>
>>
>> d0=: -:&(/:~) Are x and y permutations of each other?
>> m1=: /:~-:i.@# Is y a permutation vector?
>> m2=: -:-@|: Is y antisymmetric?
>> m3=: -:|: Is y symmetric?
snip
Despite all the unintended humor provided by this little listing, it is easy to
see matrix ops in J are, as in APL, about as shorthanded as you can get.
Of course, the next question is...how many of you do that kind of matrix
math.
>Ooops! How did they let that actual _word_ (rxmatch) thru?
>If it weren't for that little slip, "J" would certainly qualify as the world's
>most unreadable (computer) language.
>
>Irv - wondering if you made all this up as a joke. If so, congratulations -
>it's a good one.
Euphoria is very transparent except where it deals with C or uses C
constructs like print/s/f or at the various other points where it uses
peek and poke. These too, are shorthands, that, while short
and reasonably logical are completely foreign to the reader at first glance.
They do not provide enough contextual information to easily interpret
what they are doing without loads of knowledge external to Euphoria or
lots of carefully constructed examples. In the case of peek and poke,
they rely on knowledge that the language itself says is not necessary...
somewhat bit order and significant byte dependent and completely
foreign to the basic concept of the language.
I, for one would prefer more explicit, self-documenting means of accessing
these items.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
17. Re: direction
APL -- A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
Gee what a unique name for a computer langauge. That must be why hundreds
of billons of users are using this language and all you need is the
special keyboard or software drivers that can do over-strike characters.
Now all I need is to get that old selectric terminal out and hooker up
to the 1160.
18. Re: direction
--=====================_272550255==_.ALT
I always wondered how a million monkeys could produce the full contents of the
Encylopedia Britannica. Now it's obvious: they could do it in APL or J... and
nobody could prove they didn't... Of course nobody could use it...
At 05:48 PM 03/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>APL -- A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
>
>
> Gee what a unique name for a computer langauge. That must be why hundreds
>
> of billons of users are using this language and all you need is the
>
> special keyboard or software drivers that can do over-strike characters.
>
> Now all I need is to get that old selectric terminal out and hooker up
>
> to the 1160.
Joel
"When the code works perfectly, the program is obsolete."
-- "The Gosple According to St. Murphy"
--=====================_272550255==_.ALT
<html><div>I always wondered how a million monkeys could produce the full
contents of the Encylopedia Britannica. Now it's obvious: they could do
it in APL or J... and nobody could prove they didn't... Of course nobody
could use it... </div>
<br>
<div>At 05:48 PM 03/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:</div>
<div>>APL -- A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE</div>
<div>></div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Gee what a unique name for a computer langauge. That must
be why hundreds</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> of billons of users are using this language and all you
need is the</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> special keyboard or software drivers that can do
over-strike characters.</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> Now all I need is to get that old selectric terminal out
and hooker up</div>
<div>></div>
<div>> to the 1160.</div>
<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
"<b><i>When the code works perfectly, the program is
obsolete</b></i>."<br>
<div align="right">
-- "The Gosple According to St. Murphy"</html>
--=====================_272550255==_.ALT--
19. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 22, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 23, 2000
Bernie Ryan wrote:
>APL -- A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
>
> Gee what a unique name for a computer langauge. That must be why hundreds
> of billons of users are using this language and all you need is the
> special keyboard or software drivers that can do over-strike characters.
> Now all I need is to get that old selectric terminal out and hooker up
> to the 1160.
The fact that APL still exists from the late 50's early 60's and has a
rather fanatical following (not unlike some other languages that we both
know about) makes it something that should not be scoffed at. It uses
implicit recursion, and as noted can handle operations on matrices in
three symbols that take about a page and a half in any other language
known to man(except for it's imitator, J). It is purely value oriented and
can pass results from one function to the next in a single statement in
a way that is very hard to follow. I don't like the language because my
brain regurgitates when I attempt to use recursive routines that are
explicit, much less implicit. My experience with recursive routines is that
they work like magic until errors occur in the recursion stack and then
debugging becomes virtually impossible. Of course, there is the
standard recursion failure caused by running out of resources or overflowing
a variable.....ad infinitum. Ugh. Also, recursion turns out to be very
difficult to optimize within compilers for reasons I don't quite understand...
since I really don't "get" recursion anyway. Maybe it's because it
is so poorly understood that just making it work is hard enough
without trying to optimize it.
As you can see, I am no fan of APL, but some of the very brightest who
have ever been in this field think very highly of it. I'll stick to Euphoria or
some other language that heads in it's direction and gets there faster...
which I haven't found yet.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
20. Re: direction
a=. 'I always wondered how a million monkeys could produce the full contents
of the Encylopedia Britannica. Now it''s obvious: they could do it in APL or
J... and nobody could prove they didn''t... Of course nobody could use it...
'
((# ? #) { ])^: 10000 a
Pots lueN ueodm.rl . sebeououLl svffohswnd lhcacohol iedsiE u rou ewa
diptdsn lutnJnrlyeyo eatoo.n if clAlpraly ddny.uIt o i rOcovh'nuoorB ek c
b.o yon.ncwstdto c pyoiiy edo .c: ddaenac.'e ndti. bnotohtnoi maddewi ti.
Makes more sense to me after the 10000th shuffle. I do take offense at
'maddewi ti', the rest I can handle.
((# ? #) { ])^: 10000 a This took 2.2 seconds on a Pentium 400. How
long in Euphoria?
Jay Daulton
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Crook [mailto:joel at MAIL.K-A.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 5:21 PM
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: direction
I always wondered how a million monkeys could produce the full contents of
the Encylopedia Britannica. Now it's obvious: they could do it in APL or
J... and nobody could prove they didn't... Of course nobody could use it...
At 05:48 PM 03/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>APL -- A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
>
>
> Gee what a unique name for a computer langauge. That must be why hundreds
>
> of billons of users are using this language and all you need is the
>
> special keyboard or software drivers that can do over-strike characters.
>
> Now all I need is to get that old selectric terminal out and hooker up
>
> to the 1160.
Joel
"When the code works perfectly, the program is obsolete."
-- "The Gosple According to St. Murphy"
21. Re: direction
- Posted by Bernie Ryan <xotron at BUFFNET.NET>
Mar 22, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 23, 2000
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:35:48 -0500, Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM> wrote:
>The fact that APL still exists from the late 50's early 60's and has a
>rather fanatical following (not unlike some other languages that we both
>know about) makes it something that should not be scoffed at. It uses
These same wizards told me in the 50's that a 6au6 vacumn tube
would never be replaced by this new fangled transistor and in a few
years they were out of work.
22. Re: direction
Irv, Bernie, Joel, Kat & co,
I know, I am not going to win any friends with what I am going to say, but I
have to say it anyway:
your arogance through total ignorance is breath taking! jiri (APL fan)
23. Re: direction
- Posted by OtterDad <otter at FULL-MOON.COM>
Mar 22, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 23, 2000
Although i do not feel this is the proper platform for Language Wars, allow me
to throw in my 2 cents worth.
As a veteran programmer of over 20 years, i have learned and use so many
different languages it would make one's head spin. I firmly believe that any good
programmer has his "handful of tools". No single language is inherently better or
worse than another. Each language that i use has it's strong points and its
weaknesses. I choose which language to use depending on the process i need to
perform and the environment in which i need to work in.
I would never hitch my career to a single language just as i could never stand
to eat only lobster day after day. Euphoria, like APL or J, has certain things
that it does very well. Each also has some things that are necessarily "wordy" to
perform. I tend to string my applications together using functions and code
snippets from several languages all working together for one single efficient
piece of code.
Whatever suits the conditions, or whatever you are comfortable programming with
will become your tool of choice for the given assignment. But a GOOD programmer
has many tools available and makes his choices accordingly.
We're not talking Good Vs. Evil - we're talking Coke Vs Pepsi.
<<otterdad steps off the soap box>>
24. Re: direction
- Posted by Kat <gertie at ZEBRA.NET>
Mar 22, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 23, 2000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: direction
> Irv, Bernie, Joel, Kat & co,
>
> I know, I am not going to win any friends with what I am going to say, but
I
> have to say it anyway:
>
> your arogance through total ignorance is breath taking! jiri (APL fan)
What arrogance?!? I have no idea how to write a useful program in Perl or in
APL, what am i arrogant about?? The only thing i did was poke some fun at a
manufactured language that was apparently designed to be totally
incompatable to any natural languages.
Kat
25. Re: direction
On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Kat wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
>
> > Irv, Bernie, Joel, Kat & co,
> >
> > I know, I am not going to win any friends with what I am going to say, but I
> > have to say it anyway:
> > your arogance through total ignorance is breath taking! jiri (APL fan)
>
> What arrogance?!? I have no idea how to write a useful program in Perl or in
> APL, what am i arrogant about?? The only thing i did was poke some fun at a
> manufactured language that was apparently designed to be totally
> incompatable to any natural languages.
>
> Kat
Besides, it isn't arrogance when you're right.
Irv
26. Re: direction
Irv wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Kat wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
>>
>> > Irv, Bernie, Joel, Kat & co,
>> >
>> > I know, I am not going to win any friends with what I am going to
>> > say,but I have to say it anyway:
>> > your arogance through total ignorance is breath taking! jiri (APL fan)
>>
>> What arrogance?!? I have no idea how to write a useful program in
>> Perl or in APL, what am i arrogant about?? The only thing i did was
>> poke some fun at a manufactured language that was apparently designed
>> to be totally incompatable to any natural languages.
>>
>> Kat
>
>Besides, it isn't arrogance when you're right.
>
>Irv
Your type, Irv, is always right. That's exactly what I was referring
to.
You obviously do not realize, it's all a matter of degree. If, for
instance, you are presented with five little symbols
x=y+z
you do not demand translation into 'replace whatever is in container x
with sum of contents of containers y and z'. The bunch looks perfectly
natural to you, but in the Kat's way it certainly isn't. Sometimes
people brighter than you just take the level of abstraction a bit
higher, beyond your reach. But that's not a valid reason to sneer at
their efforts.
jiri
27. Re: direction
- Posted by Kat <gertie at ZEBRA.NET>
Mar 23, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 24, 2000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: direction
> Irv wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Kat wrote:
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
> >>
> >> > Irv, Bernie, Joel, Kat & co,
> >> >
> >> > I know, I am not going to win any friends with what I am going to
> >> > say,but I have to say it anyway:
> >> > your arogance through total ignorance is breath taking! jiri (APL
fan)
> >>
> >> What arrogance?!? I have no idea how to write a useful program in
> >> Perl or in APL, what am i arrogant about?? The only thing i did was
> >> poke some fun at a manufactured language that was apparently designed
> >> to be totally incompatable to any natural languages.
> >>
> >> Kat
> >
> >Besides, it isn't arrogance when you're right.
> >
> >Irv
>
> Your type, Irv, is always right. That's exactly what I was referring
> to.
>
> You obviously do not realize, it's all a matter of degree. If, for
> instance, you are presented with five little symbols
>
> x=y+z
>
> you do not demand translation into 'replace whatever is in container x
> with sum of contents of containers y and z'. The bunch looks perfectly
> natural to you, but in the Kat's way it certainly isn't. Sometimes
> people brighter than you just take the level of abstraction a bit
> higher, beyond your reach. But that's not a valid reason to sneer at
> their efforts.
>
> jiri
Right, J and Perl don't look *natural* to me, like i said,,, but still, i
was not *sneering* at them, i was poking good natured fun. I didn't mean any
harm by it. I envy people who can sit down and write good code in a language
where "@#$%$T$%]@$%4\/454" is a valid line. I envy David Cuny's work, if i
had a reason to learn the intricacies of windoze like he has, i'd prolly do
it, but since i'd rather not have windoze on my puter at all, i don't have a
lot of incentive.
Even tho i envy them, it's the results of the code working that i envy, not
the abstractness of the languages they use. I'm sure i could write a
language no one could figure out, that's easy, but i prefer to stay with
programming languages that approach the natural spoken such as english or
spanish or portugese, or even italian. The way i see it, the puter is here
to make my life easier, it's not here to cause me to spend a year learning
languages i don't need, especially if i can get the same power in a language
i prefer. But i wasn't sneering, slamming, dissing, insulting, etc the
language, and i'm sorry i assumed you could take a joke.
Kat
28. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 23, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 24, 2000
Kat wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
>To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:23 PM
>Subject: Re: direction
>
snip
For Jiri, and in answer to all others, I will quote Donald Knuth, the author of
APL, in an interview mainly about TeX, one of his other minor creations.
"I do strongly think that people, when they start throwing computers at
something, they think that it's a whole new ballgame, so why should they
study the past. I think that is a terrible mistake. But also, I love to read
historical source materials, so I couldn't resist. I had a good excuse to study
these things, and the more I looked at it, the more interesting it was. But I
don't think responsible computer scientists should be unaware of hundreds of
years of history that went before us. So that was just a natural thing to
approach it that way, for me."
The quote is in reference to a comment made about the beauty of the
math capabilities of TeX and their similarity to some of the older methods
of expressing things like calculus integration. I would be willing to be that
if one were to take the time to read a basic APL primer, that it would all
appear quite a bit more logical than it does at first glance. That doesn't
mean that I like APL or that I have personally gotten beyond very basic
programming in the language, and that long ago. Knuth explains things
very well and in language that most people can understand when he is
talking about things within their ken. But, I will freely admit, Knuth is
completely beyond me in more than a few areas. Most of what any
modern compiler jock like Robert has learned came and still comes from
Knuth. He is only 62 and is still active in the field. Just go to google.com
and enter Donald Knuth and read just a little bit of what is there and your
casual surety that whatever it is that you "like" is more than just that will
go the way of the dodo bird.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
29. Re: direction
- Posted by Bernie Ryan <xotron at BUFFNET.NET>
Mar 23, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 24, 2000
On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:27:43 -0500, Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM> wrote:
>I will quote Donald Knuth, the author of
>APL, in an interview mainly about TeX, one of his other minor creations.
>
The original APL programming language was defined in a book by
Kenneth Iverson called A Programming Langauge, published in 1962.
The acronym APL comes from the title of the book.
Iverson's original intent was not to create a computer programming
langauge but to develop a notation system to express concisly many
important alagorithms in mathematics. APL used special notational
conventions & symbols like subscripts, superscripts, and two-dimensional
syntax using arrrows to show flow of control. These special symbols and
notations make APL difficult to implement it on a computer.
A modified version ( APL\360 ) of original APL was implemented by
Iverson, Falkoff, and a group at IBM in the late 60's. The langauge
is interactive and is powerful in direct processing of data structures.
30. Re: direction
- Posted by Irv Mullins <irv at ELLIJAY.COM>
Mar 23, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 24, 2000
On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, you wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
> > Irv wrote:
> >
> > >On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Kat wrote:
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Jiri Babor" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
> > >>
> > >> > Irv, Bernie, Joel, Kat & co,
> > >> >
> > >> > I know, I am not going to win any friends with what I am going to
> > >> > say,but I have to say it anyway:
> > >> > your arogance through total ignorance is breath taking! jiri (APL
> fan)
> > >>
> > >> What arrogance?!? I have no idea how to write a useful program in
> > >> Perl or in APL, what am i arrogant about?? The only thing i did was
> > >> poke some fun at a manufactured language that was apparently designed
> > >> to be totally incompatable to any natural languages.
> > >>
> > >> Kat
> > >
> > >Besides, it isn't arrogance when you're right.
> > >
> > >Irv
> >
> > Your type, Irv, is always right. That's exactly what I was referring
> > to.
> >
> > You obviously do not realize, it's all a matter of degree. If, for
> > instance, you are presented with five little symbols
> >
> > x=y+z
> >
> > you do not demand translation into 'replace whatever is in container x
> > with sum of contents of containers y and z'. The bunch looks perfectly
> > natural to you, but in the Kat's way it certainly isn't. Sometimes
> > people brighter than you just take the level of abstraction a bit
> > higher, beyond your reach. But that's not a valid reason to sneer at
> > their efforts.
> >
> > jiri
>
> Right, J and Perl don't look *natural* to me, like i said,,, but still, i
> was not *sneering* at them,...<snip> The way i see it, the puter is here
> to make my life easier, it's not here to cause me to spend a year learning
> languages i don't need, especially if i can get the same power in a language
> i prefer. But i wasn't sneering, slamming, dissing, insulting, etc the
> language, and i'm sorry i assumed you could take a joke.
>
> Kat
Oh, Kat, you're too polite. Obfuscation for the sake of nothing but obfuscation
deserves a sneer now and then.
I also sneer at people who fancy themselves "brighter" than me,
especially those like Jiri who have repeatedly proven otherwise.
(One example: his admitted inability to get Linux working, a task which
can be completed successfully by a 10-year-old who can read, but which
is beyond Jiri's reach).
As far as Jiri's snide remark about my "type" always being right - not so.
I should have added Jiri's name to my killfile months ago. That was a mistake.
The PLONK you hear is me correcting that oversight.
Irv
31. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 23, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 24, 2000
Bernie Ryan wrote:
> Everett Williams wrote:
>
>>I will quote Donald Knuth, the author of
>>APL, in an interview mainly about TeX, one of his other minor creations.
>>
>
> The original APL programming language was defined in a book by
>
> Kenneth Iverson called A Programming Langauge, published in 1962.
>
You are so right. So much for pontificating. Actually, I had already figured
it out, but you beat me to it. The point he makes still stands. I have lived
thru much of the history and I do mistake parts of it from time to time. But,
as suggested in the quote, I had gone back and reread some of the history
and found out that it was Iverson instead of Knuth. Since I took my first
programming course in 1966, these things were already a part of
computing's history when I wrote my first line of code. Knuth also wrote
another book that you and Kat would find fascinating if you have not
read it already. The book is "Literate Programming" and it heads in
much the direction that I hope Euphoria is heading. There is a very good
interview with Knuth at the following URL:
It mentions APL and a host of other things that might be interesting to
any one who cares about where this field is heading...including an old/new
language that he has just kicked out called CWEB.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
32. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 23, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 24, 2000
Irv Mullins wrote:
>>
>> Kat
>
>Oh, Kat, you're too polite. Obfuscation for the sake of nothing but obfuscation
>deserves a sneer now and then.
>
>I also sneer at people who fancy themselves "brighter" than me,
>especially those like Jiri who have repeatedly proven otherwise.
>(One example: his admitted inability to get Linux working, a task which
>can be completed successfully by a 10-year-old who can read, but which
>is beyond Jiri's reach).
>
>As far as Jiri's snide remark about my "type" always being right - not so.
>I should have added Jiri's name to my killfile months ago. That was a mistake.
>The PLONK you hear is me correcting that oversight.
>
>Irv
Irv,
Everybody has their blind spot. It will be so much fun to see the day you
trip over your's. I've privately chewed up and down several of the senior
members of this list, and publicly agreed and disagreed with most. I can
think of none that is not my superior in some areas...including yourself and
Jiri. I've also seen you asking for help on some things that were more
obvious than not. So. What I heard was a comment that applies to all of
us. That is, that at some level in some area all of us will come up short and
feel "stupid". The fact that someone openly admits that they have a problem
with a particular item does not mean that they are dumber than the ten
year old that can do it. I've seen some really bright ten year olds and none
that have the width and depth to cover more than the areas of their
prescient stardom. And ten year olds tend to have useless personal
arguments.
I think I liked OtterDad's post better than all...use the appropriate tool in
the
appropriate spot...and have a full belt of tools. Somehow, since this is an
Euphoria list, we feel the need to defend it and make fun of other languages,
most of which have much wider and deeper use than the language that we
all like so much. We occasionally need to stop and consider why that is,
especially since some of those other languages are much younger than
Euphoria. The one feature of those other languages is that almost all of
them are open to one degree or another. If someone is impatient with the
development of the language they can attempt to forge ahead or to add to
the language what extensions that they wish. With the modularity that they
have, their modifications can participate at an object level, extending the
language. Every extension to Euphoria has a large hill to climb. It cannot
in anyway control the compiler/interpreter so it must take it's place with
the current program as a big ball. With each extension, the ball gets bigger.
Reminds you of Intel's problems with having more than two of it's wondrous
new memories. Since they are sequential, every extra one makes the
path longer and the delay greater. At some point, you hit diminishing
returns. As all the major contributors start to push the limits of the language
in their new or old projects, we need some guidance and help from RDS.
What will we get and when will we get it, RDS. We, as a group need to
quit picking at one another and aim our frustrations where they belong,
at the feet of those who got us where we are...RDS and Rob. For the
second time in recent days, I will SHOUT in internet speak.
ROB and RDS...WHERE ARE WE HEADED AND AT LEAST IN WHAT
GENERAL TIME FRAME? GIVE US A PLAN OR A ROADMAP. EVERY
MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR HAS REQUESTED OR COMMENTED ON THINGS
THAT ARE NEEDED AND MOST ARE NOT IN REAL CONFLICT. LEAD,
FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY, BUT STATE WHICH YOU ARE
GOING TO DO. THOSE WHO HAVE PAID THEIR MONEY FOR THE
DOS/WINDOWS VERSION DID NOT DO SO JUST FOR THE PRIVILEGE
OF SEEING A LINUX VERSION. THE MONEY WAS SPENT TO BE
SURE THAT THE LANGUAGE WOULD CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD.
IT HAS BEEN LONG ENOUGH SINCE THE LAST MAJOR RELEASE.
YOU CAN'T HIDE BEHIND THAT "I DON'T PLAN" DODGE BUT FOR SO
LONG. GET A CLUE AND GIVE IT TO US!
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
33. Re: direction
Hi Rob,
Everett Williams wrote:
>
>ROB and RDS...WHERE ARE WE HEADED AND AT LEAST IN WHAT
>GENERAL TIME FRAME? GIVE US A PLAN OR A ROADMAP. EVERY
>MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR HAS REQUESTED OR COMMENTED ON THINGS
>THAT ARE NEEDED AND MOST ARE NOT IN REAL CONFLICT. LEAD,
>FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY, BUT STATE WHICH YOU ARE
>GOING TO DO. THOSE WHO HAVE PAID THEIR MONEY FOR THE
>DOS/WINDOWS VERSION DID NOT DO SO JUST FOR THE PRIVILEGE
>OF SEEING A LINUX VERSION. THE MONEY WAS SPENT TO BE
>SURE THAT THE LANGUAGE WOULD CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD.
>IT HAS BEEN LONG ENOUGH SINCE THE LAST MAJOR RELEASE.
>YOU CAN'T HIDE BEHIND THAT "I DON'T PLAN" DODGE BUT FOR SO
>LONG. GET A CLUE AND GIVE IT TO US!
>
Everett has made a valid point here. You follow this list regularly, but
rarely, if ever, do you comment on the types of questions Everett alludes
to. Why? Do you fear that disclosing your plans regarding Euphoria's future
will negatively impact our desire to use it or a competitor's ability to
beat you to the punch? I just don't get it. Why don't you speak openly to
us. Let us know what you think of our ideas and wishes. I think some great
ideas have been suggested here, but have been largely ignored by you for
some unknown reason. Don't you think it's about time that you get your
thoughts together and express them to us? I think we deserve that.
Hopefully... Lee.
34. Re: direction
Lee West writes:
> Don't you think it's about time that you get your
> thoughts together and express them to us?
At the moment I am very busy doing a major rewrite
of the Euphoria database system. The new version will
support large databases with good performance.
That should be out in a few days. The call interface won't
change, just the internals.
Soon after, I will set things up for multi-user access.
Maybe another few days.
The namespace improvements are definitely still on
the agenda.
I still intend to port to new platforms, but nothing is
definite yet.
I have a list of dozens of useful small improvements
that I would like to make.
Most of my time goes into non-programming matters, such
as advertising and promotion, tech support and general enquiries,
shipping disks, updating the Web site and Web Ring,
reading and replying on this mailing list etc.
I'm happy to get suggestions, but I can't afford to get sucked
into endless discussions of the type "please write me an
essay on why you don't like this really cool feature
that I just thought of?".
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
35. Re: direction
Robert Craig wrote:
>At the moment I am very busy doing a major rewrite
>of the Euphoria database system. The new version will
>support large databases with good performance.
>That should be out in a few days. The call interface won't
>change, just the internals.
>Soon after, I will set things up for multi-user access.
>Maybe another few days.
>
That will be welcome.
>The namespace improvements are definitely still on
>the agenda.
>
This one will make a lot of people VERY happy.
>
>Most of my time goes into non-programming matters, such
>as advertising and promotion, tech support and general enquiries,
>shipping disks, updating the Web site and Web Ring,
>reading and replying on this mailing list etc.
>I'm happy to get suggestions, but I can't afford to get sucked
>into endless discussions of the type "please write me an
>essay on why you don't like this really cool feature
>that I just thought of?".
>
Sounds like you need a partner to share the load!!!
Thanks for responding... You didn't answer one of the most repeated
questions though. What about adding true record structures of the type
found in C/C++ and Pascal? If not, could you give a brief explanation?
Thanks... Lee.
36. Re: direction
Irv, I did not say I was brighter than you, that would hardly be worth
mentioning. Your ignorance is amply documented by your very public
sneers as well as your own assertions the authors of APL, Pearl and J
aimed, deliberately, to obfuscate. jiri
37. Re: direction
>I still intend to port to new platforms, but nothing is
>definite yet.
Rob (and any others interested)
BEOS release 5 has been set to be released for free on March 28 at an
undeterminate time. It has full development tools with it (GCC I think)
I am planning on using it, and hopefully building at least a dual
celeron to run it on. Hoping you will considering porting to it, it has
100,000 registered users as of the 16th...
Monty
38. Re: direction
- Posted by Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
Mar 24, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 25, 2000
Lee West writes:
> Thanks for responding... You didn't answer one of the
> most repeated questions though. What about adding
> true record structures of the type found in C/C++ and Pascal?
> If not, could you give a brief explanation?
This is exactly the type of question that I try to avoid.
There are two types of structures that people want.
The first is a Euphoria structure that holds Euphoria
data types. The second is a C structure that holds C
data types. The C structure would be aligned in memory
exactly as C requires.
The problem with the first is that it takes a language
that's elegantly based on two data types: atom and sequence,
and it jams in a third. The problem with the second is
that it forces Euphoria to suck in a lot of knowledge
of C, and possibly even a particular C compiler, since
there is no universal standard for alignment of C structures.
My intention was that certain people would interface with C
using peeks and pokes and the rest of us would simply
call Euphoria "wrapper" routines and not have to worry about it.
To a large extent that is what is actually happening.
You could also achieve structures by creating classes with
data members, but object-oriented features would be another
big blast of added complexity that I'm not ready to accept yet.
I've never been satisfied with any proposals
for either of these structures, but if someone comes up with
a *concrete* proposal that I like, I'll implement it.
Until then, I probably won't comment any further on it.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
39. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 24, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 25, 2000
Robert Craig wrote:
>At the moment I am very busy doing a major rewrite
>of the Euphoria database system. The new version will
>support large databases with good performance.
>That should be out in a few days. The call interface won't
>change, just the internals.
>Soon after, I will set things up for multi-user access.
>Maybe another few days.
Not requested, but very nice. It may even get rid of the
1001 questions on how to get file IO right...at least when
dealing with Euphoria data. Now, if we could more
easily deal with non-Euphoria data.
>The namespace improvements are definitely still on
>the agenda.
And have you no words about structures and modularity? As
new libraries come out and projects get more ambitious the ball
of code is just going to get bigger and bigger.
>I still intend to port to new platforms, but nothing is
>definite yet.
Look below and see your excuse for how you have to use
your time. I'm not against new platforms, but cross-platform
capabilities seem to be missing when we cross platforms.
How many more incompatible platforms do we want to code on?
A common code base with cross-platform access to the basics
of IO, a GUI or interface to one(there are several cross-platform
GUI's that could be written to), and a means to easily access
the rest of the code base on each platform...some form of
flexible interface code.
>I have a list of dozens of useful small improvements
>that I would like to make.
Yay...when.
>Most of my time goes into non-programming matters, such
>as advertising and promotion, tech support and general enquiries,
>shipping disks, updating the Web site and Web Ring,
>reading and replying on this mailing list etc.
If you were a little more responsive to your users, the language
might be selling enough to get you freed up to do the things mentioned
above. Or are you a control freak that just can't let go of any of these
things? You have claimed in the past that money isn't an issue.
>I'm happy to get suggestions, but I can't afford to get sucked
>into endless discussions of the type "please write me an
>essay on why you don't like this really cool feature
>that I just thought of?".
>
These are words of profound disrespect to your faithful and even
adulatory users. There are a consistent set of features spoken about
by most of the major contributors on the list. Neither Mr. West nor
myself has asked for any such essay. What we are asking for is
information from YOU on what YOU are thinking and where we are
heading and approximately when. Right now, you talk like a petulant
child that has been disturbed from his milk and cookies. Show some
respect for those who have supported you and your work. Provide some
feedback. Do some of that planning you so hate and give us the
benefit of it. We are at your mercy.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
40. Re: direction
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 24, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 25, 2000
Robert Craig wrote:
>Lee West writes:
>> Thanks for responding... You didn't answer one of the
>> most repeated questions though. What about adding
>> true record structures of the type found in C/C++ and Pascal?
>> If not, could you give a brief explanation?
>
>This is exactly the type of question that I try to avoid.
Just because the problem is difficult doesn't mean that it
should be avoided. It certainly isn't trivial or somebody's
cool idea.
>There are two types of structures that people want.
>The first is a Euphoria structure that holds Euphoria
>data types. The second is a C structure that holds C
>data types. The C structure would be aligned in memory
>exactly as C requires.
Of course it would since it would probably be using a structure
provided from another program written in C or one of the many
programs that use C data structures.
>The problem with the first is that it takes a language
>that's elegantly based on two data types: atom and sequence,
>and it jams in a third.
The fixed sequence with known element types is in reality a subset
of the general set of atoms and sequences, not an addition to it.
It offers some real opportunities for optimization of a lot of otherwise
simple problems that are unreasonably hard to approach in Euphoria
as it stands.
>The problem with the second is
>that it forces Euphoria to suck in a lot of knowledge
>of C, and possibly even a particular C compiler, since
>there is no universal standard for alignment of C structures.
>My intention was that certain people would interface with C
>using peeks and pokes and the rest of us would simply
>call Euphoria "wrapper" routines and not have to worry about it.
>To a large extent that is what is actually happening.
I don't accept your premise that there is significant variation in
alignment in C structures in the major dialects. Even assuming
that you are correct, you can then give us structures that can
be adjusted for different alignments. It wouldn't be hard to provide
a structure description capability that could handle any
combination of bit, byte and higher data types.
>You could also achieve structures by creating classes with
>data members, but object-oriented features would be another
>big blast of added complexity that I'm not ready to accept yet.
If the tools of namespace and structure and modularity are
provided, it appears that there are sufficient volunteers to close
the OOP circuit for those that want it. I don't, but many may.
>I've never been satisfied with any proposals
>for either of these structures, but if someone comes up with
>a *concrete* proposal that I like, I'll implement it.
>Until then, I probably won't comment any further on it.
>
You'll be glad for us to do the work and show our stuff to you,
but your cards all remain hidden. Something seems a bit
unbalanced there. Even Linus doesn't try to pull that one off,
and he probably could.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
41. Re: direction
- Posted by Lee West <leewest at ALTAVISTA.COM>
Mar 24, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 25, 2000
Rob... Thanks for commenting on this subject. I'm not sure if it will
satisfy the interested parties, but at least they'll know where you stand.
Lee.
Robert Craig wrote:
>This is exactly the type of question that I try to avoid.
>
>There are two types of structures that people want.
>The first is a Euphoria structure that holds Euphoria
>data types. The second is a C structure that holds C
>data types. The C structure would be aligned in memory
>exactly as C requires.
>
>The problem with the first is that it takes a language
>that's elegantly based on two data types: atom and sequence,
>and it jams in a third. The problem with the second is
>that it forces Euphoria to suck in a lot of knowledge
>of C, and possibly even a particular C compiler, since
>there is no universal standard for alignment of C structures.
>My intention was that certain people would interface with C
>using peeks and pokes and the rest of us would simply
>call Euphoria "wrapper" routines and not have to worry about it.
>To a large extent that is what is actually happening.
>
>You could also achieve structures by creating classes with
>data members, but object-oriented features would be another
>big blast of added complexity that I'm not ready to accept yet.
>
>I've never been satisfied with any proposals
>for either of these structures, but if someone comes up with
>a *concrete* proposal that I like, I'll implement it.
>Until then, I probably won't comment any further on it.
>
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
42. Re: direction
In my opinion it would wiser for RDS to not waste valuable time and
effort on application programming ie database and etc. The full
development effort should be only directed at the core langauge.
If the correct core langauge features are added the users will
develop the applications. I understand that RDS can not add every
feature that is requested but with careful consideration features
can be added that will give the end user the ability to extend the
language and write the database and etc. applications for you. Every
time RDS adds another platform the design for the core lanaguage
design changes, because this and that feature can not be implemented
in the new language. I think that RDS should not continue to add new
platforms until the basic core language is fully designed. I think
that if RDS improved the core langauge that in a long run they would
make them more money if thats their goal.
I think RDS is concentrating too much on the public domain use and
neglecting the paying customer. I am willing to pay a reasonal price
for a Euphoria Pro edition that has features that allows me to add
my own features. Even though I do not program for a living, I think their
are many programmers on the list that use Euphoria to make a living that
would be willing to pay for your work.
The question to ask is if another company developed a langauge that
supported sequences then what other features would be unique about
Euphoria.
Waiting for and willing to pay a reasonable price for a core language
upgrade.
Thanks for your good work so far Rob
Bernie
features.
