1. RE: The Great Computer Language Shootout
jiri babor wrote:
> Has anybody ever tried to form/submit a euphoric set for The Great
> Computer
> Language Shootout?
>
> http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/
> http://dada.perl.it/shootout/
Hi Jiri,
There was some discussion on the list a while ago about this.
It's interesting in the FAQ is this:
"The language should have most of the following desireable features:
1. Ability to read/write 4K buffers, bypassing standard I/O.
2. Process control (i.e. fork()/wait()).
3. Exceptions.
4. Regular Expressions (preferably Perl compatible).
5. Linux Kernel Threads.
6. Internet Sockets.
7. Objects.
8. Ability to print out its own version number.
9. A module system, and separate compilation of modules (if
compiled).
I may make some exceptions to the above, but only if I feel like it."
The "author" is limiting the languages used to include "what he thinks"
is the minimum requirements of a language.
Euphoria for instance doesn't come close to meeting these requirements.
Many people have on numerious occasions pointed out these limitations
and strangely enough alot of the people don't seem to be around here
anymore.
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
2. RE: The Great Computer Language Shootout
Hi CK,
EUPHORiCK wrote:
> Ray Smith wrote:
> Ray, I'm just your ordinary, average hobbyist programmer, with a few
> commercial programs (by which I mean programs that get used by a company
> on a daily basis and on which that company depends)... So, in the
> interest of my education, can you answer the following for me...?
To start with I was just quoting from the web page.
In that web page authors "opinion" the features listed are what "he"
beleives to be the minimum requirements of a fully functional
language.
Many people I assume would agree with this and probably just as many
wouldn't.
I don't know why he may have included some of these requirements
but I'll try to give some possible explanations.
> >"The language should have most of the following desireable features:
> >
> > 1. Ability to read/write 4K buffers, bypassing standard I/O.
> >
> Why [should a language have this]? What does EUPHORIA do?
I assume eu does this as file access in eu is as fast as any other
language have used.
> > 2. Process control (i.e. fork()/wait()).
> >
> This is for threading, right? Is there a good example of when this would
> be useful? I'm thinking probably for huge database management
> applications...
Process control has it's roots in Unix. forking basically allows
threading in different address spaces.
I'm in the middle of reading a new book from Eric S Raymond called
"The Art of Unix Programming" (readable for free at
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/)
which discusses process control and threading at a good arms length.
It is a really interesting read which I think every programmer
could learn a lot even if not using Unix.
When would it be used?
Large applications can be broken up into seperate tasks which
communicate with (hopefully) simple predefined interfaces which
break large problems up into smaller easier to manage small pieces.
> > 3. Exceptions.
> >
> Why?
If you're running any type of server process how do you recover from
errors? By Exceptions. Exceptions also in some cases make
programming more intuitive. Exceptions just aren't for server
programms by the way all proghrams can become more roboust by using
exceptions.
> > 4. Regular Expressions (preferably Perl compatible).
> >
> Why? And don't we have a library for this?
This requirement is a little left field, again I think it's based on
the fact that most unix tools include regular expressions.
Regular Expressions are "almost" manditory when processing text.
Yes, I think there is a Perl based regular expression library
available for eu.
> > 5. Linux Kernel Threads.
> >
> Okay, so maybe process control isn't for threading... :/
Threading is very important for server based programms. A server
can't just stop responding when it is busy processing one persons
request. Threading just makes it possible to do more than one thing
at a time. Eric S Raymond (see book above) is very against threads
except when no other better method exists. He beleives threads only
become popular when some OS's (MAC/Windows) had poor Process Control
tools.
> > 6. Internet Sockets.
> >
> Available in a library, right?
I don't think we have a good cross platform TCP library.
> > 7. Objects.
> >
> Why? And isn't this available in Bach?
We aren't talking about Bach :)
> > 8. Ability to print out its own version number.
> >
> Okaaaay. And why? (EUPHORIA does this when you run the interpreter,
> right?)
Yes, eu does this if you don't specify a program to run.
Do you need an answer as to why this is good?
> > 9. A module system, and separate compilation of modules (if
> >compiled).
> >
> Whosee whatee?!
Only a requirement of compiled systems. Some large projects can take
days to compile from start to finish. There are even some projects
which allow "compile farms" to increase the time of compilation by
sharing the compiling amoung a group of servers!
> >I may make some exceptions to the above, but only if I feel like it."
> >
> >The "author" is limiting the languages used to include "what he thinks"
> >is the minimum requirements of a language.
> >
> Yes...
>
> >Euphoria for instance doesn't come close to meeting these requirements.
> >
> So...?
So .. it means if someone doesn't beleive a language has the features
they require they won't use it.
> >Many people have on numerious occasions pointed out these limitations
> >and strangely enough alot of the people don't seem to be around here
> >anymore.
> One man's "limitations" is another man's "hurdles."
I agree.
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
3. RE: The Great Computer Language Shootout
kbochert at copper.net wrote:
> Mostly very good. The complete list of results is at:
> http://catexa.com/bachman/html/benchmarks.html
Is BACH available for downloading?
I went to the above page, but could not find a link (or a link to a
link) to download BACH.
Also, do you include source for the benchmarks?
Thanks!
4. RE: The Great Computer Language Shootout
- Posted by kbochert at copper.net
Nov 11, 2003
On 10 Nov 2003 at 23:04, Ed Davis wrote:
>
>
> kbochert at copper.net wrote:
> > Mostly very good. The complete list of results is at:
> > http://catexa.com/bachman/html/benchmarks.html
>
> Is BACH available for downloading?
>
Yes -- go to http://catexa.com
> I went to the above page, but could not find a link (or a link to a
> link) to download BACH.
>
> Also, do you include source for the benchmarks?
>
Surprisingly, no. I will soon remedy that oversight.
Karl Bochert
5. RE: The Great Computer Language Shootout
kbochert at copper.net wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2003 at 23:04, Ed Davis wrote:
> > Also, do you include source for the benchmarks?
> >
> Surprisingly, no. I will soon remedy that oversight.
Would it be possible for you to notify the list when the source
for the benchmarks is available?
