1. Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 18, 2001
Hello all,
I am in need of some advice. I would like to make a diskette that contains
private data
non-transferable to another diskette. What I mean is writting bits to the
boot sector or
a set of bits at a certain sector that would if copied, be transfered to
another location on
the copy to diskette making it inoperable. Is there a way to protect serial
numbers on
diskettes that anyone knows about? What sectors or hidden sectors would not
transfer
if a copy was made? There must be a way!
I agree that some of the virus code out there might help in this situation.
I would rather stay away from this type of copy protection...
I thought about using a scatter scheme "broken files" that could only be put
back together,
if I could find out how to protect the disk first..
Any GREAT ideas.... very much appreciated!
Euman
euman at bellsouth.net
2. Re: Copy Protection
On 18 Nov 2001, at 20:51, euman at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am in need of some advice. I would like to make a diskette that contains
> private data
> non-transferable to another diskette. What I mean is writting bits to the
> boot sector or
> a set of bits at a certain sector that would if copied, be transfered to
> another location on
> the copy to diskette making it inoperable. Is there a way to protect serial
> numbers on diskettes that anyone knows about? What sectors or hidden sectors
> would not transfer if a copy was made? There must be a way!
>
> I agree that some of the virus code out there might help in this situation. I
> would rather stay away from this type of copy protection...
>
> I thought about using a scatter scheme "broken files" that could only be put
> back together, if I could find out how to protect the disk first..
>
> Any GREAT ideas.... very much appreciated!
How about a simple password? Then the first time it is run, gather info about
the computer it is running on, and write that to hidden locations on the disk
with bios calls. Next time it is run, if the hardware is significantly
different,
trash the disk or ask for a new password.
Kat
3. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 19, 2001
This wont work for what I need cause the data will be on a usage monitor as
well.
From: <freeplay at mailandnews.com>
> Hello Euman,
>
> One copy protection method I've seen in the past is where the software is
also
> distributed with a printed manual. When the software is run it asks for a
> word from the manual to be entered. For example:
>
> "To activate type the 3rd word in the second paragraph on page 32 of the
> manual".
>
> If you don't get it right then the software doesn't run - you have to try
> again and when you do your asked for a word from a different part of the
> manual.
>
> The idea is that while it is easy and very cheap to copy the content of a
> floppy it's a bit more hassle to copy a manual. I guess you could photo
copy
> the manual but if the manual is 100 pages or so this might be a bit
pricey.
> Also I guess the manual could be scanned in and converted to a word
document
> (or PDF or whatever) and also copied to a second diskette but even
scanning a
> 100 plus pages is a bit of a pain.
>
> However, the general idea is to make the process more cumbersome.
>
> Regards,
>
> FP.
4. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 19, 2001
From: "Kat" <gertie at PELL.NET>
>
> How about a simple password? Then the first time it is run, gather info
about
> the computer it is running on, and write that to hidden locations on the
disk
> with bios calls. Next time it is run, if the hardware is significantly
different,
> trash the disk or ask for a new password.
>
Describe this hidden location on disk you're talking about, Im interested..
are you talking about int13h and writting across partition tables or
creating a partition with so many sectors and leaving this unformatted
or modifying the master-partition boot sector..
"hey, that might be a good idea"
Thanks Kat,
> Kat
Euman
euman at bellsouth.net
5. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 19, 2001
Oh well, I guess I was wrong...
Floppy disk dont contain a Master-Partition boot sector
nor does it contain a diagnostic cylinder and, it can not
be re-partitioned>>>!
So Im back to square 1
----- Original Message -----
From: "Euman" <euman at bellsouth.net>
To: <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: Copy Protection
>
> From: "Kat" <gertie at PELL.NET>
> >
> > How about a simple password? Then the first time it is run, gather info
> about
> > the computer it is running on, and write that to hidden locations on the
> disk
> > with bios calls. Next time it is run, if the hardware is significantly
> different,
> > trash the disk or ask for a new password.
> >
>
> Describe this hidden location on disk you're talking about, Im
interested..
> are you talking about int13h and writting across partition tables or
> creating a partition with so many sectors and leaving this unformatted
> or modifying the master-partition boot sector..
>
> "hey, that might be a good idea"
>
> Thanks Kat,
>
> > Kat
>
> Euman
> euman at bellsouth.net
>
>
6. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 19, 2001
Ok does anyone know where to find the table definition
for the output of this debug code?
(produces an image of the DOS volume boot sector found on A:\ drive)
-L 100 0 0 1
-N <filepath & name>
-R CX
CX 0000
:200
-W
-Q
7. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 19, 2001
To anyone interested I did find that table listed here
for FAT which will do the trick...
http://averstak.tripod.com/fatdox/bootsec.htm#oem
> Ok does anyone know where to find the table definition
> for the output of this debug code?
>
> (produces an image of the DOS volume boot sector found on A:\ drive)
>
> -L 100 0 0 1
> -N <filepath & name>
> -R CX
> CX 0000
> :200
> -W
> -Q
>
>
8. Re: Copy Protection
Hi euman
----------
> Îò: euman at bellsouth.net
> Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> Òåìà: Re: Copy Protection
> Äàòà: Monday, November 19, 2001 17:32
> Ok does anyone know where to find the table definition
> for the output of this debug code?
>
> (produces an image of the DOS volume boot sector found on A:\ drive)
>
> -L 100 0 0 1
> -N <filepath & name>
> -R CX
> CX 0000
> :200
> -W
> -Q
Try please:
debug Enter
-? Enter
to see the table of debug commands
and parametres.
But this is all I remember about that debug
after 8 years break of that my exercises,
sorry and sorry again
I have DR DOS 6.0, there is very good
manual in this package, about debug too,
but this debug is not debug, it is SID,
which have -?? command for detailed help
and double letter commands and so on.
I think, try your manuals on old MS DOS,
My Win-95 manual doesn't ever say about
this great tool.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
9. Re: Copy Protection
Hi!
Some sites I came across.
http:\\www.programmersheaven.com
(has a lot of cool stuff)
http:\\www.encryption.com
(Ditto)
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=psxdev
(Ongoing discussion by a wellknown genius about copy
protection, learn from it)
10. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 20, 2001
> Hi!
> Some sites I came across.
>
> http:\\www.programmersheaven.com
> (has a lot of cool stuff)
> http:\\www.encryption.com
> (Ditto)
> http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=psxdev
> (Ongoing discussion by a wellknown genius about copy
> protection, learn from it)
I think I'll stick with the real PRO's in this area
http://www.t13.org/
Euman
euman at bellsouth.net
11. Re: Copy Protection
Euman,
Two points... One, it is possible to respond to a list posting in a polite
manner. Two, while the t13 site does have some heavyweights behind it, I
think we're all aware that ingenious people, not backed by a corporation,
frequently break the supposedly iron-clad security that corporations are so
proud of. Also, it is wise not to get all your information from a single
source. I'd add t13 to my list of useful sites, not use it as a
replacement.
Regards,
Ted Fines
--On Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:22 PM -0500 euman at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>> Hi!
>> Some sites I came across.
>>
>> http:\\www.programmersheaven.com
>> (has a lot of cool stuff)
>> http:\\www.encryption.com
>> (Ditto)
>> http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=psxdev
>> (Ongoing discussion by a wellknown genius about copy
>> protection, learn from it)
>
> I think I'll stick with the real PRO's in this area
>
> http://www.t13.org/
>
> Euman
> euman at bellsouth.net
>
>
>
>
12. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 20, 2001
Thank-you, you probably arent familiar with the world famous MTS which in my
opinion
deserves (0) respect..
Sure, protection schemes are devised to keep the honest person at bay..
BTW, on the subject of protection schemes:
I have devised a way to write a new custom boot-sector and add a counter
that will count
backwards to (0) when (0) is reached, the disk is no-good because I write
AA55h
instead of 55AAh "pretty neat little fool stamp" that is required by a
boot-sector in
DOS or Win to be read. Maybe I'll even go even further now that Im
interested and write
my own disk format....who knows!
Euman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Fines" <fines at macalester.edu>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Copy Protection
>
> Euman,
>
> Two points... One, it is possible to respond to a list posting in a polite
> manner. Two, while the t13 site does have some heavyweights behind it, I
> think we're all aware that ingenious people, not backed by a corporation,
> frequently break the supposedly iron-clad security that corporations are
so
> proud of. Also, it is wise not to get all your information from a single
> source. I'd add t13 to my list of useful sites, not use it as a
> replacement.
>
> Regards,
> Ted Fines
>
>
> --On Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:22 PM -0500 euman at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> >
> >> Hi!
> >> Some sites I came across.
> >>
> >> http:\\www.programmersheaven.com
> >> (has a lot of cool stuff)
> >> http:\\www.encryption.com
> >> (Ditto)
> >> http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=psxdev
> >> (Ongoing discussion by a wellknown genius about copy
> >> protection, learn from it)
> >
> > I think I'll stick with the real PRO's in this area
> >
> > http://www.t13.org/
> >
> > Euman
> > euman at bellsouth.net
> >
> >
>
>
>
13. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com
Nov 20, 2001
Well, I was told many years ago that this protection scheme was used then by
some, so it should work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Jackson" <rodjackson_x at hotmail.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: RE: Copy Protection
>
> Euman,
>
> Here's a thought that may take a bit of effort, but may work reasonably
> well:
>
> Locate one (or more) sector(s) physically on the disk. I.e., be able to
> point with a needle to the magnetic tape or reflective coating of the
> disk, and be able to say "Sector X is here."
>
> Punch a hole through the disk at the appropriate sector(s).
>
> Have the data on the disk be scattered about, and encrypted. The only
> clue to where the bad sectors are is contained, in a program that is
> also stored on the disk. Also, the only record of how the data is
> scattered, and of what the encryption key is, is stored in the program.
> You could even have these two data records (where the bad sectors are
> and how to render the data readable) be 'scrambled', to prevent a simple
> look at the program code from reading it. The program knows how to
> unscramble the records.
>
> The only way to access the information now (without considerable effort)
> is via the on-disk program. When run, this program 'unscrambles' the
> bad-sector info if necessary, and checks to see that the punched-out
> sectors can be neither read from or written to. If the program finds
> that the sectors are indeed bad, 'unscramble' the data info if
> necessary, then reconstruct and decrypt the data. Finally, the data is
> presented to the user/desktop program.
>
> Should the program find that the physical sectors ARE indeed there, it
> demands that the original disk be used and aborts. The program won't run
> unless from the original disk, and the "visible" data is useless without
> the program restructuring/decrypting it. Voila, an uncopyable disk (at
> least to the casual--and possibly experienced--user.)
>
> Note that this is all theoretical though; I'm not a hardware guy. 
>
> Rod Jackson
>
>
> euman at bellsouth.net wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I am in need of some advice. I would like to make a diskette that
> > contains
> > private data
> > non-transferable to another diskette. What I mean is writting bits to
> > the
> > boot sector or
> > a set of bits at a certain sector that would if copied, be transfered to
> > another location on
> > the copy to diskette making it inoperable. Is there a way to protect
> > serial
> > numbers on
> > diskettes that anyone knows about? What sectors or hidden sectors would
> > not
> > transfer
> > if a copy was made? There must be a way!
> >
> > I agree that some of the virus code out there might help in this
> > situation.
> > I would rather stay away from this type of copy protection...
> >
> > I thought about using a scatter scheme "broken files" that could only be
> > put
> > back together,
> > if I could find out how to protect the disk first..
> >
> > Any GREAT ideas.... very much appreciated!
> >
> > Euman
> > euman at bellsouth.net
> >
> >
>
>
>
14. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 20, 2001
I dont have the tooling to do this properly thats why I have to do this
thing
with software...
Thanks,
Euman
From: <rforno at tutopia.com>
> Well, I was told many years ago that this protection scheme was used then
by
> some, so it should work.
15. Re: Copy Protection
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Nov 20, 2001
> Euman,
>
> Well, that's just it. From everything I've read, this CAN'T be done just
> with software.
>
> >From what I know, programs are available on the internet that allow you
> to copy any disk. It doesn't matter if there are are checksum errors,
> hidden data, etc.--every bit written to the original disk is copied to
> the new, without any regard for what it means.
>
> As I said, I'm no hardware guru. I get the impression that devising a
> new disk format would only the disk from being read by conventional
> movements of the disk drive's read/write head. If so, this might work...
> although you're now saddled with the need for special software to read
> the disk.
>
> Plus, I think committed hackers would be able to unravel the new format
> (not that they couldn't also crack the punched-hole disk problem; no
> solution is TOTALLY foolproof short of a one-time-pad-encrypted disk
> with the key given in person to the appropriate user. And even that only
> stops the data from being read, not from being copied.)
>
> Rod Jackson
I agree with what your saying here. No method is full-proof.
We have a product that is only usefull to the particular business that
ordered the product
in the first place. What we want to do is make it hard enough so the company
would
1. either loose money because they spent an enormous amount of time trying
to figure
out how to duplicate the software which would be more than the actual
product update
would cost or, 2. simply give us the cash for the updated product.
It's a keep ourselves in business sort of scheme that will work because most
of the clients
do not have the means with which to tackle the cracks that would be
involved.
I am currently reading up on supposed proprietary disk formats from a well
know hackers site
and should by what I see at this point duplicate or render my own format..
I thought about marking the floppy disk and the hard disk on the initial
install of our wares
and gather the HD info and transfer this back to the floppy in an encrypted
form using Blow-fish
or some type of scheme but I dont know very much the legal side of
encryption to do this.
Does anyone know if Blow-fish is now legal to use in/or export from the USA?
Maybe a HASH routine would be better because it's not technically an
encryption...
There are many questions and probabilities to security and there has to be a
combination of these
to make a cracker go insane trying to figure it all out...If there is I
certainly would like to do it...
"make a cracker insane, that is!" hehehe
Thanks Rod,
Euman
euman at bellsouth.net
16. Re: Copy Protection
Hi,
as I see the problem, the aim is to ensure that the customer only uses what they
paid for.
If this is so, then taking copies of the software is not the problem, it's using
those copies in an
inapproriate manner that is the problem.
For example, I think it is quite okay for a customer to have a copy of the
original media as a
backup copy, in case the original gets damaged. This is just prudent management
of a valuable
resource. However, to use the backup copy and the original media at the same
time is not acceptable
for most software vendors. This is similar to installing software on multiple
machines, which allows
simultaneous usage of the software licence by many people.
The solution seems to reside in the use of a unique physical token that must be
present when the
software is being used. This is the idea behind the "dongle" devices that plug
into the back of your
PC and their presence is checked periodically by the software. A similar thing
is the "key" diskette
used by very early copy-protection schemes. This was a diskette that was
specially marked in some
way that could be detected by software but not easily duplicated. The diskette
had to be present
when using the software. The type of marking varied from physical holes, special
codes in "system"
areas of the diskette, or even tracks that where recorded at the "wrong"
densities.
The major flaw in these methods, is that the software that was used to detect
the presence of the
token could be hacked to skip over the checking or always return a success flag.
The Rational Software company uses a highly effective copy protection scheme
that is a real pain for
its customers, but at $10,000+ for each licence we don't bitch too much. What
they do is when the
software is installed, it generates a special code based on the characteristics
of the machine you
are installing on. You then have to telephone Rational and speak to a person
there who will ask you
for the licence key and the installer's generated code. Rational then check
their database to see if
you haven't exceeeded the number of licences and if you haven't they give you an
authorisation code,
which you must then enter using their licence administration software. If you
need to move the
installation to a different machine (or upgrade the hardware on the installed
machine), you need to
uninstall the software first. When you do this, the uninstall will give you
another generated code,
also unique to your machine. You then ring up Rational again and tell them the
uninstall code, then
you can go and install onto another (or same) machine using the process outlined
above. The software
routines that check your licences are also very heavily protected (via
encryption and other weird
methods) to make sure you don't get around it.
The net effect is that their software can only run on a given machine until
Rational allows you to
install it on another machine. One tends not to move the software about very
much
---------
Derek.
21/11/2001 12:30:56 PM, euman at bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
>> Euman,
>>
>> Well, that's just it. From everything I've read, this CAN'T be done just
>> with software.
>>
>> >From what I know, programs are available on the internet that allow you
>> to copy any disk. It doesn't matter if there are are checksum errors,
>> hidden data, etc.--every bit written to the original disk is copied to
>> the new, without any regard for what it means.
>>
>> As I said, I'm no hardware guru. I get the impression that devising a
>> new disk format would only the disk from being read by conventional
>> movements of the disk drive's read/write head. If so, this might work...
>> although you're now saddled with the need for special software to read
>> the disk.
>>
>> Plus, I think committed hackers would be able to unravel the new format
>> (not that they couldn't also crack the punched-hole disk problem; no
>> solution is TOTALLY foolproof short of a one-time-pad-encrypted disk
>> with the key given in person to the appropriate user. And even that only
>> stops the data from being read, not from being copied.)
>>
>> Rod Jackson
>
>I agree with what your saying here. No method is full-proof.
>
> We have a product that is only usefull to the particular business that
>ordered the product
>in the first place. What we want to do is make it hard enough so the company
>would
>1. either loose money because they spent an enormous amount of time trying
>to figure
>out how to duplicate the software which would be more than the actual
>product update
>would cost or, 2. simply give us the cash for the updated product.
>
>It's a keep ourselves in business sort of scheme that will work because most
>of the clients
>do not have the means with which to tackle the cracks that would be
>involved.
>
>I am currently reading up on supposed proprietary disk formats from a well
>know hackers site
>and should by what I see at this point duplicate or render my own format..
>
>I thought about marking the floppy disk and the hard disk on the initial
>install of our wares
>and gather the HD info and transfer this back to the floppy in an encrypted
>form using Blow-fish
>or some type of scheme but I dont know very much the legal side of
>encryption to do this.
>Does anyone know if Blow-fish is now legal to use in/or export from the USA?
>Maybe a HASH routine would be better because it's not technically an
>encryption...
>
>There are many questions and probabilities to security and there has to be a
>combination of these
>to make a cracker go insane trying to figure it all out...If there is I
>certainly would like to do it...
>"make a cracker insane, that is!" hehehe
>
>Thanks Rod,
>
>Euman
>euman at bellsouth.net
>
>
>
>
17. Copy Protection
- Posted by Craig Welch <euphoria at cwelch.org>
Mar 17, 2006
-
Last edited Mar 18, 2006
A few people have discussed obtaining the hard disk serial number, in
the context of copy protection for their software.
I'm looking at such schemes, for some software that I plan to release
commercially mid-year.
There's an interesting discussion of some of the options here:
http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=107393
--
Craig
18. Re: Copy Protection
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:54:55 +1000, Craig Welch <euphoria at cwelch.org>
wrote:
>A few people have discussed obtaining the hard disk serial number, in
>the context of copy protection for their software.
>
>I'm looking at such schemes, for some software that I plan to release
>commercially mid-year.
>
>There's an interesting discussion of some of the options here:
>http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=107393
I had a few other ideas:
GetKeyboardLayout -- umm, I get 08090809
GetUserDefaultLangID -- "" (or), I get 02000809
GteLogicalDrives/GetDriveType=DRIVE_FIXED, eg:
C: only: #4, C: & D: : #C, C:, D:, &E: #1C
GlobalMemoryStatus.dwTotalPhys -- **GOOD**, I think
QueryPerformanceFrequency -- **GOOD**, I think
The one I failed big time on was DeviceIoControl, with either
"\\\\.\\C:" or "\\\\.\\PHYSICALDRIVE2"; I just could not get a handle
from CreateFile (with the intent of getting TracksPerCylinder/
SectorsPerTrack/ BytesPerSector). If you can get that to work I would
like a copy (I can email my failed attempt if you like, and working
code for phys.mem/pFreq).
I also thought about ComputerName, TimeZone, and GetVersion but
quickly realised they should not be used as same PC could have
multiple OS installed / be jet-setted around the world / need OS
re-install, etc.
The concept of say 3/5 matches means same machine, which the
above link extols, is a pretty neat I think, thanks for that.
Regards,
Pete
