1. Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 04, 2009
- 1174 views
Read an interesting post on computer languages. Wondering what some of you thought in regards to how Euphoria measures up given the author's criteria.
2. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by Jerry_Story May 04, 2009
- 1165 views
Read an interesting post on computer languages. Wondering what some of you thought in regards to how Euphoria measures up given the author's criteria.
Perhaps another criterion should be added to the list. A program and the libraries it depends on should be easy to install.
3. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 04, 2009
- 1130 views
The post mentions multicore processors several times. I don't have a computer with a multicore cpu, but perhaps Euphoria can claim to be multicore-useable if garbage collection can spawned off to the other core.
The article did not mention OpenCog, which can store it's variables out in another computer's memory or harddrive. I'd say this would make it incredibly slow, but given the way Eu uses 32bits+ for each 7bit ascii char, and i am using 1.8gigabyte swap file now, and three harddrives are constantly busy, and it may take 5 minutes to open a new browser window and an hour to open a text file, use of more cpu cores isn't the fastest way to a faster application.
useless
4. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 04, 2009
- 1135 views
I'd say this would make it incredibly slow, but given the way Eu uses 32bits+ for each 7bit ascii char, and i am using 1.8gigabyte swap file now, and three harddrives are constantly busy useless
I thought you converted to using mixedlib (so each 7bit ascii char would only take up 8bits). Granted, this is slower, but should save you the speed penalty that comes with having a huge swap file and constant hard disk accesses caused by thrashing.
5. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 04, 2009
- 1117 views
I'd say this would make it incredibly slow, but given the way Eu uses 32bits+ for each 7bit ascii char, and i am using 1.8gigabyte swap file now, and three harddrives are constantly busy useless
I thought you converted to using mixedlib (so each 7bit ascii char would only take up 8bits). Granted, this is slower, but should save you the speed penalty that comes with having a huge swap file and constant hard disk accesses caused by thrashing.
I have been very busy, and this would take some doing, there's a lot of accessing of the data sequence. But it's nuts that a 32 megabyte index file becomes 124 megabytes just loading it into a sequence, then various operations create duplicates in memory (248 megabytes now) and that memory isn't released. And i need a second copy for case insensitive operations, making a total of 496 megabytes used. Add in the actual data files, and the 2.4ghz P4 computer with a gig of ram slows down to where my olde C64 would catch up to it.
useless
6. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 04, 2009
- 1125 views
I have been very busy, and this would take some doing, there's a lot of accessing of the data sequence. But it's nuts that a 32 megabyte index file becomes 124 megabytes just loading it into a sequence, then various operations create duplicates in memory (248 megabytes now) and that memory isn't released. And i need a second copy for case insensitive operations, making a total of 496 megabytes used. Add in the actual data files, and the 2.4ghz P4 computer with a gig of ram slows down to where my olde C64 would catch up to it.
useless
Well, in your case then I think even mixedlib won't help. The 32 megs would be duplicated into 64 megs, then duplicated again in 128 megs. Having six more files with another 32 megs each (or three more files with 64 megs each), and your ram is gone ... and as I understand it, you generally deal with gigabyte sized text files...
7. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by SDPringle May 04, 2009
- 1105 views
- Last edited May 05, 2009
Everyone,
this has been talked about already. It isn't a new idea at all. It was Kat complaining about the same thing. It seems rather inefficient to store bytes into 32 bit words. Then by using astronomical sizes you see the size is too big in memory.
A solution was Kat Strings. You add another field to the s1 struct in the EUPHORIA internals that describe how data is stored in a sequence and by making the C code a lot more complex you could save space in this unlikely scenario. The price of which is more code in the backend and more cases and probably more complex translated code as well...
Then, why would you need to store so many bytes in memory when we have mysql and a like?
Shawn Pringle
8. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 05, 2009
- 1127 views
Everyone,
this has been talked about already. It isn't a new idea at all. It was Kat complaining about the same thing. It seems rather inefficient to store bytes into 32 bit words. Then by using astronomical sizes you see the size is too big in memory.
A solution was Kat Strings. You add another field to the s1 struct in the EUPHORIA internals that describe how data is stored in a sequence and by making the C code a lot more complex you could save space in this unlikely scenario. The price of which is more code in the backend and more cases and probably more complex translated code as well...
Then, why would you need to store so many bytes in memory when we have mysql and a like?
Shawn Pringle
I guess i am all wrong again.
My inability to install and run *nix, php, mysql/lite, or apache might have something to do with it, i dunno. Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails. So i gave up, i cannot win, so i write code to get around those who choose to stay in my way.
useless
9. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 05, 2009
- 1124 views
Everyone,
this has been talked about already. It isn't a new idea at all. It was Kat complaining about the same thing. It seems rather inefficient to store bytes into 32 bit words. Then by using astronomical sizes you see the size is too big in memory.
A solution was Kat Strings. You add another field to the s1 struct in the EUPHORIA internals that describe how data is stored in a sequence and by making the C code a lot more complex you could save space in this unlikely scenario. The price of which is more code in the backend and more cases and probably more complex translated code as well...
And this is slated for after 4.0.
Then, why would you need to store so many bytes in memory when we have mysql and a like?
Shawn Pringle
Agreed, as I had pointed out, fixing Euphoria wouldn't have helped Kat.
10. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 05, 2009
- 1124 views
I guess i am all wrong again.
My inability to install and run *nix, php, mysql/lite, or apache might have something to do with it, i dunno.
You can install the Windows versions of these, with nice easy Inno Setup installation wizards.
Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails.
Since you claim that you can not even receive post (that the post office will not deliver to your address), I can see why this would be difficult to achieve successfully.
So i gave up, i cannot win, so i write code to get around those who choose to stay in my way.
useless
In that case, why not write a preprocessor to convert your code to using mixedlib? It'd be a lot faster than doing such a conversion manually, even with a bogged down computer.
11. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 05, 2009
- 1118 views
My inability to install and run *nix, php, mysql/lite, or apache might have something to do with it, i dunno. Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails.
I don't know your address so I can't send a preinstalled working box to you.
However, I can offer the next best thing -> a .zip file that when unzipped, all you need to do is run the .bat file in order to have working php, mysql, and apache. (No need to do any sort of installation other than unzipping the .zip file).
12. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by m_sabal May 05, 2009
- 1152 views
I would recommend downloading and using xampp (runs on Windows); but its lack of security settings would make it a non-option, I think. Xampp is a full Apache / PHP / MySQL stack built to run on Windows without plugging into the service control manager or registry. It's lightweight, and intended for installation on USB drives for development / demonstration use. http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html
13. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by irv May 05, 2009
- 1104 views
My inability to install and run *nix, php, mysql/lite, or apache might have something to do with it, i dunno. Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails. So i gave up, i cannot win, so i write code to get around those who choose to stay in my way.
useless
You are smart, certainly smarter than me. I can install and get running all the above in less than one hour. So can you.
If you require hardware already set up, send me the specs - memory and processor. I have access to tons of used computers. If I can find one which meets your specs, I'll install all the above and ship it to you at my expense, no charge.
14. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 05, 2009
- 1104 views
I guess i am all wrong again.
My inability to install and run *nix, php, mysql/lite, or apache might have something to do with it, i dunno.
You can install the Windows versions of these, with nice easy Inno Setup installation wizards.
Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails.
Since you claim that you can not even receive post (that the post office will not deliver to your address), I can see why this would be difficult to achieve successfully.
I never claimed the post office could not deliver to my physical address. What i said was if i attempt to retrieve the delivered mail, the neighbors would turn dogs loose on me. The next court date is June 22 2009. After several years of court dates every other month, because of this harrassment, i removed the post office box from it's post, and then someone hit the post with a bulldozer (i have photos of the dozer tracks thru the grass). Parcel delivery (boxes, crates, etc) would be tossed over the fence in haste by the delivery personel so they can retreat back into their vehicle and not get dog bit. The act of "tossing" means the delivered item impacts the ground and often breaks (for instance, i cannot re-sell solar panels because delivery here causes 10% of them to be broken, erasing my profit margin). I do not know why i must explain everything in such fine detail to you, or why you misquote and misunderstand me.
So i gave up, i cannot win, so i write code to get around those who choose to stay in my way.
useless
In that case, why not write a preprocessor to convert your code to using mixedlib? It'd be a lot faster than doing such a conversion manually, even with a bogged down computer.
[/quote]
Yeas, i'll simply spend more time trying to get around the features, and less time on getting a task accomplished.
Sorry to have bothered you.
useless.
15. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 05, 2009
- 1083 views
You can install the Windows versions of these, with nice easy Inno Setup installation wizards.
Mike Sabal's link to a USB version of these programs is worth a look at also.
Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails.
Since you claim that you can not even receive post (that the post office will not deliver to your address), I can see why this would be difficult to achieve successfully.
I never claimed the post office could not deliver to my physical address. What i said was if i attempt to retrieve the delivered mail, the neighbors would turn dogs loose on me. The next court date is June 22 2009. After several years of court dates every other month, because of this harrassment, i removed the post office box from it's post, and then someone hit the post with a bulldozer (i have photos of the dozer tracks thru the grass). Parcel delivery (boxes, crates, etc) would be tossed over the fence in haste by the delivery personel so they can retreat back into their vehicle and not get dog bit. The act of "tossing" means the delivered item impacts the ground and often breaks (for instance, i cannot re-sell solar panels because delivery here causes 10% of them to be broken, erasing my profit margin).
Ok, so this comes down to the same thing, that delivering a working system to you is out of the question.
OTOH, someone more creative than I might be able to figure out how to safely ship a box full of delicate computer equipment to you under those conditions.
Even if you can't simply have a new system shipped to you, there are other options.
I do not know why i must explain everything in such fine detail to you, or why you misquote and misunderstand me.
I don't think I could have misquoted you if I didn't quote you at all. 
As for needing fine details, I think that's more because of my own nature than anything else.
Here is a quote of what I misunderstood:
[quote="March 27, 2009 EST"] 15:36 <useless-afk> iamlost, i know i will lose this one, i lose in every case against me, even to a dog 15:36 <iamlost> useless-afk: i thot u won that case in court! the judge asked h ow long that carp had been going on! 15:36 <useless-afk> even on my own property, even if the dog is attempting to b it or lock me in my home 15:37 <useless-afk> iamlost, i still cannot get mail delivery or garbage pickup 15:37 <useless-afk> i still cannot get help to retrieve the bathtub i loaned to someone in the cabin, because it's een that i do not deserve to be clean [/quote]
Yeas, i'll simply spend more time trying to get around the features, and less time on getting a task accomplished.
Sorry to have bothered you.
useless.
This seems to be a non-sequitur to me.
If you are saying the only option is to have 8bit strings implemented in eu, or else you'll just give up...
16. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 05, 2009
- 1093 views
My inability to install and run *nix, php, mysql/lite, or apache might have something to do with it, i dunno. Offering to pay people do install them, or offering to buy a computer already set up, also fails. So i gave up, i cannot win, so i write code to get around those who choose to stay in my way.
useless
You are smart, certainly smarter than me. I can install and get running all the above in less than one hour. So can you.
If you require hardware already set up, send me the specs - memory and processor. I have access to tons of used computers. If I can find one which meets your specs, I'll install all the above and ship it to you at my expense, no charge.
Thanks you for the offer, Irv, but i believe the computer would be physically damaged upon delivery. Besides, i also have some unused computers. Would you mind if i show this post to the judge next month to illustrate another reason why i need the same property rights everyone else enjoys? While they have not listened to a word i have said without microscopic and lengthly details, like i provided to jbrown in earlier post, the court has listened to others.
And i think i may be getting to him. In January this year he disregarded the DA's office and decided i am allowed access to my property if i am already on it, but still has let stand the dog's right to bite me if i am on county property (the paved road) trying to get to or leave my property. This stops me from having postoffice and parcel delivery, as well as garbage pickup.
I intend to also show that people who have wished to visit me cannot do so, based on fear of assault by the dogs, or the desire to not be a bother to me (opening/closing gates would require 15 minutes each way coming/going up/down the driveway, as well as mace/guns and the mindset to kill dogs, a situation everyone but the neighbor wants to avoid).
I will certainly be trying M_Sabal's suggestion of the xampp install, tonight. I have the page he suggested open in a browser, and will be reading thru the docs etc tonight. Any suggestions for using that install on winxp are quite welcome and encouraged.
useless
17. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by irv May 05, 2009
- 1128 views
You may certainly show this post if you wish.
18. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 05, 2009
- 1102 views
Yeas, i'll simply spend more time trying to get around the features, and less time on getting a task accomplished.
Sorry to have bothered you.
useless.
This seems to be a non-sequitur to me.
If you are saying the only option is to have 8bit strings implemented in eu, or else you'll just give up...
I give up asking for them. I continue programming, but refuse to show you code or applications i write which use 8bit ascii chars. Mentioning the topic irritates you and doesn't help me at all. Much like living in this nation under dog, unless i silently accept it and don't talk about it, i get attacked in various ways.
useless
19. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 05, 2009
- 1093 views
I give up asking for them. I continue programming, but refuse to show you code or applications i write which use 8bit ascii chars. Mentioning the topic irritates you and doesn't help me at all. Much like living in this nation under dog, unless i silently accept it and don't talk about it, i get attacked in various ways.
useless
What have I done to attack you?
What have I said that sounded irritated?
20. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by useless May 05, 2009
- 1085 views
I give up asking for them. I continue programming, but refuse to show you code or applications i write which use 8bit ascii chars. Mentioning the topic irritates you and doesn't help me at all. Much like living in this nation under dog, unless i silently accept it and don't talk about it, i get attacked in various ways.
useless
What have I done to attack you?
- Since you claim that you can not even receive post (that the post office will not deliver to your address),
- Well, in your case then I think even mixedlib won't help.
- Agreed, as I had pointed out, fixing Euphoria wouldn't have helped Kat.
What have I said that sounded irritated?
- Here is a quote of what I misunderstood:
- ="March 27, 2009 EST" said:
- 15:36 <useless-afk> iamlost, i know i will lose this one, i lose in every case against me, even to a dog 15:36 <iamlost> useless-afk: i thot u won that case in court! the judge asked h ow long that carp had been going on! 15:36 <useless-afk> even on my own property, even if the dog is attempting to b it or lock me in my home 15:37 <useless-afk> iamlost, i still cannot get mail delivery or garbage pickup 15:37 <useless-afk> i still cannot get help to retrieve the bathtub i loaned to someone in the cabin, because it's een that i do not deserve to be clean
- This seems to be a non-sequitur to me.
- If you are saying the only option is to have 8bit strings implemented in eu, or else you'll just give up...
I mean really..... why bring up the bathtub issue? It's a rhetorical queston, i don't care. I don't want to spend any more time on it. And yes, i have given up on ever having a shower or bathtub at home again, but i will have one on the boat, even if the usa marine police or coast guard make me leave the usa to use it. Why you brought this up, or why it's a issue in real life in the first place, i don't understand. Seriously, why can't i have rain barrels or a cistern, but ex-pres Bush can have both at his Crawford ranch home? I must leave the usa to avoid this detailed oppressive scrutiny?!?
I think it's my decision to use mixedlib or not, it's it's applicable to the task or not. Since you don't know the application and have seen no code, ya know?
The offtopic misunderstood quote doesn't help.
And i said i have been attacked in various ways. I didn't elaborate by who or when, but you had to jump right in there with both feet. For instance, i put up a radio tower to get wireless dsl from a provider, but according to the DA's office if the dog came over and didn't want me to get off the tower, i'd haveto stay up it till the dog changed it's mind. It's as if the legal system here wants to make sure a dog is running my life at all times. I didn't accuse you or anyone on this list of making sure i did not climb that tower to install the radio equipment or to get reliable internet thru it. And you know how bad internet service is here, from the amount of times i get disconnected from irc. It's not your fault.
useless
21. Re: Computer Language Comparison for Casual Reading
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 05, 2009
- 1093 views
- Since you claim that you can not even receive post (that the post office will not deliver to your address),
- Well, in your case then I think even mixedlib won't help.
- Agreed, as I had pointed out, fixing Euphoria wouldn't have helped Kat.
These were not meant to be construded as attacks. They were meant to be statements of facts and options (correct or incorrect as they may be), and I apologize for any offense I have caused you.
- Here is a quote of what I misunderstood:
- ="March 27, 2009 EST" said:
- 15:36 <useless-afk> iamlost, i know i will lose this one, i lose in every case against me, even to a dog 15:36 <iamlost> useless-afk: i thot u won that case in court! the judge asked h ow long that carp had been going on! 15:36 <useless-afk> even on my own property, even if the dog is attempting to b it or lock me in my home 15:37 <useless-afk> iamlost, i still cannot get mail delivery or garbage pickup 15:37 <useless-afk> i still cannot get help to retrieve the bathtub i loaned to someone in the cabin, because it's een that i do not deserve to be clean
The offtopic misunderstood quote doesn't help.
That was just to provide context.
- This seems to be a non-sequitur to me.
In other words, I didn't understand what you were trying to say...
- If you are saying the only option is to have 8bit strings implemented in eu, or else you'll just give up...
But again, I didn't understand what you were trying to say, this question was a "shot-in-the-dark".
I mean really..... why bring up the bathtub issue? It's a rhetorical queston, i don't care. I don't want to spend any more time on it. And yes, i have given up on ever having a shower or bathtub at home again, but i will have one on the boat, even if the usa marine police or coast guard make me leave the usa to use it. Why you brought this up, or why it's a issue in real life in the first place, i don't understand. Seriously, why can't i have rain barrels or a cistern, but ex-pres Bush can have both at his Crawford ranch home? I must leave the usa to avoid this detailed oppressive scrutiny?!?
Concurred in full.
The last line of the quote was not relevant and I did not need to paste that. I wasn't thinking.
I think it's my decision to use mixedlib or not, it's it's applicable to the task or not. Since you don't know the application and have seen no code, ya know?
Agreed.
And i said i have been attacked in various ways. I didn't elaborate by who or when, but you had to jump right in there with both feet. For instance, i put up a radio tower to get wireless dsl from a provider, but according to the DA's office if the dog came over and didn't want me to get off the tower, i'd haveto stay up it till the dog changed it's mind. It's as if the legal system here wants to make sure a dog is running my life at all times. I didn't accuse you or anyone on this list of making sure i did not climb that tower to install the radio equipment or to get reliable internet thru it. And you know how bad internet service is here, from the amount of times i get disconnected from irc. It's not your fault.
useless
You said:
Mentioning the topic irritates you and doesn't help me at all. Much like living in this nation under dog, unless i silently accept it and don't talk about it, i get attacked in various ways.
Which still reads like a very clear accusation to my eyes. But I am glad to know that it is just another misunderstanding on my part.
P.S. Support for multi-core requires support for native threading. One implies the other. I haven't looked in to this and have no idea how long adding support for threading would take. (Alternatively, you could use fork() (this not only works on Unix but there are also implementations for Windows) and run multiple processes of the same executable image on multiple cores.)
