1. Important question?

It seems to me that there are three important questions that need to be asked and answered in a thoughtful way.

1. What is the future of euphoria?
2. What is the future of the forum?
3. What is happening to the archives?

Regards,
jd

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2. Re: Important question?

1. What is the future of euphoria?
2. What is the future of the forum?
3. What is happening to the archives?

Hi

1. It's stagnated. There is just too small a developer pool to drive it forward, with little enthusiastic fresh blood being injected. So, to answer the question, dubious.
2. It's stagnated. There is just too small a user base to ask questions, create topics, and support queries, certainly compared to what there was in the good old days.
3. The archives are safe, by me as a download, by Irv as a download, and by Pete and Greg as accessible resources. Greg's is at https://archive.usingeuphoria.com/

Phix is being actively developed by Pete, a very enthusiastick one man band, and for now this more than satisfies my Euphoria cravings, but as with anything one man, it depends on that one man to continue development. Long may it continue.

Unfortunately, and sadly, I do think that Eu has declined over the years, losing out to, specifically, Python, even though I think Eu is a simpler and better language, that suits my needs, but like anything else, it needs a minimum critical mass to thrive and grow - much lik a programmatical game of life.

I also think it needs to find a niche not fulfilled by another language - the Raspberry Pi and Python are an example of what could be achieved.

If promotion on other language forums is tried, then there invariably the 'haters' who will pick apart eu, saying it doesn't have this or that, or polymorphism, or objects or classes, etc etc (whetever they might be!), but they kind of miss the point - Eu is just so easy to use as a programming language that it blows most everything else out of the water. (again IMHO)

Never mind, I will continue to write and enjoy the Eu programming language, just wish we could stop the silly bickering which does not leave a good impression with any casual browsers.

Sometimes I feel like euphoria is the second foundation, a small band of psychohistorians embedded in the centre of the galaxy, just waiting once again to take it's rightful place, beside Python and Ruby.

Cheers

Cryptic Chris

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3. Re: Important question?

I know Phix is a good alternative to Euphoria, or rather it builds upon Euphoria. However, like Euphoria, Phix does not have a built in struct. I think this would help a lot. Especially since they both can call DLL methods with realtive ease. I know there is a struct branch, but it is still in development or testing phase, I believe. Although development has been stagnant on Euphoria, I've also noticed development on many other programming tools has been slow. SFML hasn't been updated in a good while, nor has GLFW. SDL2 seems to get updates every so often. There also seems to be less of an interest in languages like Euphoria, many would probably prfer to learn something like Python rather than Euphoria. I actually don't care for Python, I learned Euphoria as one of my eariler programming languages, it remains one of my favorites today.

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4. Re: Important question?

jessedavis said...

It seems to me that there are three important questions that need to be asked and answered in a thoughtful way.

I have a lot to say about this and I've been having a hard time getting my words together. Chris covered it pretty well, but I'll do my best to share what I have to say.

jessedavis said...

1. What is the future of euphoria?

In a word, uncertain. We need someone with enough A. time and B. technical capacity to merge a couple branches, build for all the platforms, and actually get out a release for 4.1. The problem I've had over the past few years is that while my technical skills have advanced quite well, my free time has continued to dwindled. I don't see that improving, honestly.

jessedavis said...

2. What is the future of the forum?

This is why I put up the (unfortunately contentious) survey. I wanted to know what we should focus on since our resources are so limited. I'm currently working on some code to help streamline web development based on what I've learned from other languages like Python and .NET.

jessedavis said...

3. What is happening to the archives?

Everything over at rapideuphoria.com is under Rob's control, sort-of. I'm sure he's beholden to his hositng provider. That being said, I think the absence of The Archive is now our strongest motivation to rewrite the website. Forum, News, all of it.

-Greg

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5. Re: Important question?

i came from c and modula-2 and really like the language. i guess i will stick with it, as long as phix is maintained. what i miss is the built in struct (extensible?), but maybe that will come sometime.

richard

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6. Re: Important question?

As Greg said, we need someone who has:

A time
B technical capacity (both the technical knowledge and access to the required hardware)


To that, I have to add:
C motivation

Assuming we don't all pitch in and hire someone to do A and B (not going to happen),
then the only remaining motivation is world-wide acclaim and adulation (also not going to happen).

One of the factors to consider here is that Euphoria was developed in 1993, when just being able to do something with a computer was an impressive accomplishment, and there was a supply of (mostly young) people with the ability and desire to learn to do something with a computer.

Fast forward to 2018: it's no longer impressive that you can do something with a computer. Anybody can post a video of their cat. And everybody does.

Add to that an increasingly common inability to do anything even a little bit "complicated" on the part of millennials. Heck, Home Depot had to resort to making videos showing their customers how to use a hammer, a tape measure, or a MOP!

Someone who is baffled by the intricacies of a mop is probably not your ideal candidate to have a career as a programmer.

Given an ever-declining number of people who have an interest in programming and the dwindling number of people who think they are able to learn to program, is it any surprise that interest in Euphoria is fading?

My conclusion is that there's nothing that can be done about that. It would be nice to keep a Euphoria web site running; I suppose it would be like those for vintage computers. There's a site or two for almost every kind made, TRS-80, MOS KIM-1, CP/M, etc. And some of those sites are surprisingly active: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php for example. Lots of discussions there about software to run on ancient platforms (like DOS, old Windows, etc.).

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7. Re: Important question?

Rest assured I am not about to abandon Phix any time soon, and I expect to continue with my current track record of 2 or 3 releases a year.

The number one stumbling block for Phix is, of course, getting it -anything- to run on Android/iOS/etc. Still pinning my hopes on a-javascript-something.

The one man development team and at most 1 or 2 converts a year does not really help either.
Progress still happens though - in the past 5 years or so I can count threads, exception handling, cffi, bigatom, multiple assignment,
dictionaries, ipc, json, pGUI, regular expressions, libcurl, websockets, and litezip as valuable additions to the language.
Admittedly all perhaps somewhat moot given they will not run on a smartphone or tablet, though.

A couple of people mentioned built in struct - but as far as I am concerned, cffi is perfectly adequate.
Perhaps this should be forked into a new thread but I will qualify that last claim: cffi is functionally sufficient,
and maintainable, and I cannot see that a slightly prettier syntax would ever make the slightest difference.

Pete

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8. Re: Important question?

yes - you do a fantastic job, i am very grateful for that. Please keep it up.

with the cffi you may be wright. now this will be stupid, but are there any examples for a linked list for example:

struct TT { 
   int i; 
   .... 
   void *data; 
   TT *next; 
   } 
how do you deal properly with *next, *data when using the struct from phix?

richard

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9. Re: Important question?

irv said...

As Greg said, we need someone who has:

A time
B technical capacity (both the technical knowledge and access to the required hardware)


To that, I have to add:
C motivation

Assuming we don't all pitch in and hire someone to do A and B (not going to happen),
then the only remaining motivation is world-wide acclaim and adulation (also not going to happen).

I would love to maintain Euphoria if I had the skills to do the job but there is too much C code fo me. Il already attempted to remove what I consider should be out of the C kernel but it resulted in a series of crashes.

In my opinion, the C kernel should be as tiny as possible even if it results in a performance loss, so there might be a chance that it would be understandable to newcomers and it might remain untouched for years.

Jean-Marc

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10. Re: Important question?

begin said...

how do you deal properly with *next, *data when using the struct from phix?

OK, cffi.e did not handle void* (or TT*) properly(!!!); you will need to grab the latest copy of builtins/cffi.e from the repository.
(At least that demonstrates my point that cffi.e is maintainable, the changes needed were somewhat easier, both for me to make and you to download, than modifying the compiler itself!)

include cffi.e 
-- NOTE: this is a triple_quote, for some reason not displaying right on this forum: 
constant tTT = """  
typedef struct TT {  
   int i;  
// ....  
   void *data;  
   TT *next;  
   } 
""" 
constant integer idTT = define_struct(tTT) 
 
atom pList = NULL 
 
procedure push(integer i) 
    atom pTT = allocate_struct(idTT) 
    set_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"i",i) 
    set_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"data",pList) 
    set_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"next",pList) 
    pList = pTT 
end procedure 
 
function pop() 
    atom pTT = pList 
    pList = get_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"next") 
    sequence res = {get_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"i"), 
                    get_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"data"), 
                    get_struct_field(idTT,pTT,"next")} 
    free(pTT) 
    return res 
end function 
 
for i=1 to 3 do 
    push(i) 
end for 
 
for i=1 to 3 do 
    ?pop() 
end for 

output:

{3,42415824,42415824} 
{2,42094328,42094328} 
{1,0,0} 

Regards,
Pete

PS: the triple quote appears quite different in the preview to when actually posted, as well, so I split the <eucode> in two.

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11. Re: Important question?

hi pete,

OK, cffi.e did not handle void* (or TT*) properly(!!!); you will need to grab the latest copy of builtins/cffi.e from the repository. 
(At least that demonstrates my point that cffi.e is maintainable, the changes needed were somewhat easier, both for me to make and you to download, than modifying the compiler itself!) 

thank you so very much. i'll get me that "builtins/cffi.e" at once - and, yes, that is a great feature not to have to modify the compiler. btw, i have really become to like iup. your decision to go for that was absolutly super.

thanks again richard

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12. Re: Important question?

This is sort of a ramble, but:

I like the Euphoria language. I can write code faster with Euphoria than any other language I have ever used (c,basic,python,java,etc.). It really is a rapid development solution. I like the fact that I can generate .exe files for deployment that don't require other software being installed (and maintained) on the users machine (like the java engine). I, too, have a wish list for additions to the language; but, they would require modifications to the compiler. The documentation (except for a few errors that never seem to get fixed) is easy to use and excellent.

As to the fact (undeniable) that Euphoria is dying I am at a loss. It pays to advertise! There a quite a few sites that discuss the many languages out there but one rarely sees Euphoria listed. Most lists include niche languages like Forth, Smalltalk, etc. but not Euphoria. Perhaps we could figure out how to get Euphoria added to some of these lists. Then, there is always youtube. A few videos pushing Euphoria as an easy beginner's language.

Phix: This is an impressive project, especially since it's a one man show. I really must ask the question...why? Why not put that energy into improving Euphoria?

Manpower: This is a tough one! I am willing to help; however, there are two important points. I am not a very good programmer (more of a hacker) and there does not seem to be much information about things like design philosophy, procedure lists & function, etc. Apart from comments in the code I haven't found much.

I have been looking around for a replacement language. No success, yet.

Regards, jd

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13. Re: Important question?

jessedavis said...

I have been looking around for a replacement language. No success, yet.

The ones that can compare to Euphoria are FreeBasic (www.freebasic.net) and Lazarus/Freepascal (https://www.lazarus-ide.org/, http://pilotlogic.com/sitejoom/). They are multi-platform, they handle a variety of external modules, but no one compare to Euphoria when it comes to debugging.

If I only could compile one of Euphoria releases, either 3.11 or 4.1 (4.0 has too much C code), I would try to reduce the portion of C code to a bare minimum. Unfortunately, there is always something that goes wrong on Windows, either missing or failing. I have never been able to compile it even once.

Jean-Marc

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14. Re: Important question?

freebasic is not maintained anymore

codetyphoon is probably the best for delphi like freepascal

there is also

d https://dlang.org
red https://www.red-lang.org
modula-2 https://www.modula2.org/adwm2/
purebasic http://www.purebasic.com
oxygenbasic http://www.oxygenbasic.org
seed7 http://seed7.sourceforge.net/scrshots/s7c.htm
factor http://factorcode.org
Clozure Common Lisp https://ccl.clozure.com
rust https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/
nim https://nim-lang.org

and many more.

i kind of like the simplicity and the debugging in phix and i will stick with it if i can.

a language to watch (i think) is red. most of the people i know wander off to rust if they are curious. all others stay with c/c + +.

what really is missing is advertisement for euphoria and some sort ot lighttower program/project. i keep on thinking, that euphoria is very well suited for AI.

well, my 10 cents

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15. Re: Important question?

jessedavis said...

why? Why not put that energy into improving Euphoria?

For exactly the same reason Jean-Marc just said.

I do not, it seems, have the skills to compile OpenEuphoria even once, sad whereas I can just about manage to remember "p -c p" smile

I started phix long before RDS Eu went open source.
I very rarely need anything that OE has but is missing from phix, and it gets easier every time to nick just that one thing.
Whereas if I went back to OE and wanted either threads or exception handling, not the slightest chance ever, methinks.

Pete

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16. Re: Important question?

petelomax said...

I very rarely need anything that OE has but is missing from phix, and it gets easier every time to nick just that one thing.
Whereas if I went back to OE and wanted either threads or exception handling, not the slightest chance ever, methinks.

I love the standard library of Eu4.1. I hope most/all of that will be incorporated someday. Of course, as thread-safe. grin

Especially maps, Pete! (?) smile

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17. Re: Important question?

euphoric said...

Especially maps, Pete! (?) smile

There is a partial compatiblity shim - but as that page says I recommend using dict.e directly instead.

Pete

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18. Re: Important question?

jmduro said...

In my opinion, the C kernel should be as tiny as possible even if it results in a performance loss, so there might be a chance that it would be understandable to newcomers and it might remain untouched for years.

Jean-Marc

Yes! I feel roughly the same way! The term "kernel" is apt in a way. What happened though, is the C part got bigger and bigger as more and more things that were implemented in EUPHORIA were re-implemented in C. Our team spent much time converting things that were in sequence.e and string.e into C when they were working fine.

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19. Re: Important question?

I finally found a way to compile EU3.11. I removed all the code related to DOS, DJGPP, LCC and BCC (Borland C) and I modified some files when I was able to do so.

And now ? It compiles and runs but I am still unable to add a feature because it is too complicated for me! I give up.

Jean-Marc

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20. Re: Important question?

petelomax said...

...I recommend using dict.e directly instead.

Ah, nice!

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21. Re: Important question?

begin said...

i keep on thinking, that euphoria is very well suited for AI.

Sadly, OE is not introspective. See also "reflection": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_(computer_programming)

It cannot (natively) ask what it does or doesn't know (access to var table and procedure table), and if it comes up with something new to do, it (natively) cannot (string execution). I have asked for these features for many years. My attempts to tack these features on, using shared memory and abusing the type system, have gone over like a lead balloon.

Kat

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22. Re: Important question?

yes but it does not keep you from writing expert systems, neural net, genetic ....

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23. Re: Important question?

begin:

Thanks for the list of alternate languages. Some interesting languages here, like "red". I would add XOJO (realbasic) to the list. I'm not a fan of OOP. Too old, I guess. For me it is important that the language have a good sized user base, an active forum... and good documentation.

I still prefer Euphoria to all other comers.

regards,
jd

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24. Re: Important question?

jessedavis said...

begin:

Thanks for the list of alternate languages. Some interesting languages here, like "red". I would add XOJO (realbasic) to the list. I'm not a fan of OOP. Too old, I guess. For me it is important that the language have a good sized user base, an active forum... and good documentation.

I still prefer Euphoria to all other comers.

regards,
jd

so do i

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25. Re: Important question?

Regarding: "Freebasic is not maintained anymore".

Mmm, actually it seems very much alive and well:

https://github.com/freebasic/fbc

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26. Re: Important question?

drifter said...

Regarding: "Freebasic is not maintained anymore".

Mmm, actually it seems very much alive and well:

https://github.com/freebasic/fbc

the main compiler developer threw. read the messages. well there was only one.

that doesn't say thing about the users. the compiler is stable so far - but how long?

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27. Re: Important question?

drifter said...

Regarding: "Freebasic is not maintained anymore".

Mmm, actually it seems very much alive and well:

https://github.com/freebasic/fbc

Hi

Freebasic is still very much usable, and used by many people, and seems to be a very capable language. However the development was run by essentially 2 dedicated and gifted amateurs, who grew tired of this, developed other life based interests, and grew tired of the bitchy and derogatory comments that were being posted to the forum, and subsequently retired.

Anyone see any similarities?

I wonder if this is actually the life cycle of the smaller niche languages.

Cheers

Chris

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28. Re: Important question?

ChrisB said...

Hi

Freebasic is still very much usable, and used by many people, and seems to be a very capable language. However the development was run by essentially 2 dedicated and gifted amateurs, who grew tired of this, developed other life based interests, and grew tired of the bitchy and derogatory comments that were being posted to the forum, and subsequently retired.

Anyone see any similarities?

I wonder if this is actually the life cycle of the smaller niche languages.

Cheers

Chris

I think the point here is whether or not the language and compiler are stable. Even if the developers drift away the Euphoria compiler and tools still exist and may be used as always. What IS important is the user forum and the archives, somewhere to discuss things and get answers and somewhere to get the software.

Long live Euphoria!

Regards,
jd

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29. Re: Important question?

ChrisB said...

Hi

Freebasic is still very much usable, and used by many people, and seems to be a very capable language. However the development was run by essentially 2 dedicated and gifted amateurs, who grew tired of this, developed other life based interests, and grew tired of the bitchy and derogatory comments that were being posted to the forum, and subsequently retired.

Anyone see any similarities?

Yes, I do see.
Let's try again one of the 14 years old topics.
Just for example.
http://openeuphoria.org/forum/61623.wc#61623


kinz


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30. Re: Important question?

kinz said...

Let's try again one of the 14 years old topics.
kinz

You can do better than that! This is valid code (just not in Euphoria or Phix) :

teststringexec { 
  set -u0 %test echo -s hello! 
  %test 
} 
I used it 20 years ago, and i still do, and i still want it, and other features, in OE. So for Jesse's #1 question, the future of Euphoria, it's the same as it was back then. Zero.

Getting a version of threading (task.e) might have been a big step except it could not be used in compiled programs. Just like nested sequences are syntax candy on dim'd arrays, OE has been candy on Eu v3.1. Rare special functions that could have made OE really stand out never happened. I still pay money for those functions in another language.

In all respect to those who did write new code for OE, you did what i couldn't do. But, look where OE is today. Those people who are running OE today got what they wanted, and it's now a static situation, slightly better than outright disappearing.

Kinz, it is better for yourself if you modify the OE source code and never tell anyone.

Kat

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31. Re: Important question?

ChrisB said...

However the development was run by essentially 2 dedicated and gifted amateurs, who grew tired of this, developed other life based interests, and grew tired of the bitchy and derogatory comments that were being posted to the forum, and subsequently retired.

Anyone see any similarities?

kinz said...

Yes, I do see.
Let's try again one of the 14 years old topics.
Just for example.
http://openeuphoria.org/forum/61623.wc#61623

Yes, agreed. So many devs from back then who are gone now.

Chris Bensler. Ray Smith. Juergen Luethje. Lucius Hilley. Alexander Toresson. Jason Mirwalds.

Derek Parnell is still around but appears to have effectively retired from active development.

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32. Re: Important question?

katsmeow said...

You can do better than that! This is valid code (just not in Euphoria or Phix) :

teststringexec { 
  set -u0 %test echo -s hello! 
  %test 
} 
I used it 20 years ago, and i still do, and i still want it, and other features, in OE

Curious. What is this code supposed to do? What language is this? What do you used it for? (testing, it seems)

-Greg

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33. Re: Important question?

ghaberek said...
katsmeow said...

You can do better than that! This is valid code (just not in Euphoria or Phix) :

teststringexec { 
  set -u0 %test echo -s hello! 
  %test 
} 
I used it 20 years ago, and i still do, and i still want it, and other features, in OE

Curious. What is this code supposed to do? What language is this? What do you used it for? (testing, it seems)

-Greg

It's just a minimal snippet to show string execution. Here's one that tests a variable ($3) for safety to execute before calling the code to execute:

      ; then do the command: 
      .timer 1 %eu.antiflood $3-  
This would be code candy in Eu, but everyone who wants to do this must write that code:
set %Eu. [ $+ [ # ] $+ . $+ [ %net ] ] yes 
-- Or do 
set %Eusock.need. [ $+ [ $2 ] $+ . $+ [ $3 ] ] yes 
It's important because i can set or unset all variables (wild)named %Eu.* , and list all the variable names. I can list all the %Eu.* variables associated with a specific #. The program builds unique but grouped variable names which i do not need to know when i am writing the code, but are still useable during execution. Is like a macro for a cell in a table of interlocked data.

I wish, in a way, i could give you more examples, but much like those who left Euphoria, i deleted megabytes of source code. I'd rather not say what the language is.

Kat

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34. Re: Important question?

You might find the Julia programming language interesting. It appears to have a lot of the things missing from Eu - but the documentation is so academic that it's hard to tell exactly what it can do.

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35. Re: Important question?

irv said...

You might find the Julia programming language interesting. It appears to have a lot of the things missing from Eu - but the documentation is so academic that it's hard to tell exactly what it can do.

and especially hard to compile, nothing easy and intuitive.

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36. Re: Important question?

ghaberek said...
katsmeow said...

teststringexec { 
  set -u0 %test echo -s hello! 
  %test 
} 

Curious. What is this code supposed to do?

I'm not too familiar but I am guessing that it reads a line of input and then evaluates it (string execution).

ghaberek said...

What language is this?

mIRC scripting.

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37. Re: Important question?

katsmeow said...

It's pretty predictable that when i say i do not wish to identify the language, jimcbrowne will be the next poster,

Actually, I wasn't. Both Irv and begin beat me to it.

katsmeow said...

and he will id it as a "scripting language".

Like bash shell script.

Actually, I only added the script bit to avoid confusion with mIRC itself, the IRC client (which ghaberek may not know).

katsmeow said...

It still has many valuable features OE lacks,

Yes, and you id'd the reason for that!

katsmeow said...

plus it's still in active development with paid developer(s).

OE/Phix also have some important features that mIRC's ... uhm, full-fledged progamming language (to avoid confusion with the IRC client, again), also lacks. *shrug*

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38. Re: Important question?

ChrisB said...

3. The archives are safe, by me as a download, by Irv as a download, and by Pete and Greg as accessible resources. Greg's is at https://archive.usingeuphoria.com/

Thanks to all for putting the archive back online. I appreciate the efforts.

Regards,
jd

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39. Re: Important question?

Did someone take a look at the way My-Basic does the job? Not the language per se but the way it works.

"My_basic is a simple and extensible lightweight BASIC script parser written in C that can be used as a standalone parser or integrated into an existing project."
https://github.com/paladin-t/my_basic

The engine is built in standard C code and is multi-platform as OE is, but all is contained in one single C source file and one header file. It can generate expandable BASIC interpreters without C knowledge (this expansion part looks to me like our DLL wrappers). I dream of such a C kernel for OE.

Jean-Marc

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40. Re: Important question?

jmduro said...

The engine is built in standard C code and is multi-platform as OE is, but all is contained in one single C source file and one header file. It can generate expandable BASIC interpreters without C knowledge (this expansion part looks to me like our DLL wrappers). I dream of such a C kernel for OE.

You're absolutely right. That code looks very clean and well thought-out. Good find!

-Greg

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