1. Any ideas
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at MAIL.COM>
Mar 25, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 26, 2000
I'm itching to code, but I have no ideas. I'm sure I could think of
something, but what's the point if no one will use it. Thus I turn to you.
Is there anything that you would like to see for euphoria? Preferably
graphics/game oriented, but I'll accept any ideas. My skills are limited,
but I'll tackle anything worthy.
Maybe you're working on something and could use an extra brain to relieve
some of the workload.
P.S.
Has anyone downloaded my ExotixaX lib? I'd like to get some feedback,
good or bad(especially bad, that's the most useful). I won't code another
word for it until I do.
How will I know what to fix/modify/add/junk if no one tells me.
Also, if you did DL it, and your a registered euphoria user, PLEASE vote
for it. I'm dirt poor and I need those votes so I can register too! THANX
FOR YOUR SUPPORT :)
--Chris Bensler
2. Re: Any ideas
Chris Bensler wrote:
> I'm itching to code, but I have no ideas. I'm sure I could think of
> something, but what's the point if no one will use it. Thus I turn to you.
> Is there anything that you would like to see for euphoria? Preferably
> graphics/game oriented, but I'll accept any ideas. My skills are limited,
> but I'll tackle anything worthy.
> Maybe you're working on something and could use an extra brain to relieve
> some of the workload.
>
> P.S.
> Has anyone downloaded my ExotixaX lib? I'd like to get some feedback,
> good or bad(especially bad, that's the most useful). I won't code another
> word for it until I do.
> How will I know what to fix/modify/add/junk if no one tells me.
>
> Also, if you did DL it, and your a registered euphoria user, PLEASE vote
> for it. I'm dirt poor and I need those votes so I can register too! THANX
> FOR YOUR SUPPORT :)
>
> --Chris Bensler
I know some things I would love to see:
A platform independant windows library (not dos, just windows/x11) - ie, use
the same function calls to do the same things regardless of the platform ,so
you could write platform independant programmes. All this would need would be
to create a library that wraps both Win32lib and the X windows library (on
the contrib page) together. I am considering doing this myself as well as
adding in other platform independant routines like converting paths, copy,
move/rename, delete, etc.
Also, if you are into games, I have a suggestion for a programmers game
(also considering this for myself): Basically, the user starts off with a
'bot'. That bot can have 1-50 banks, each with user written code in it. Once
started, the bot follows the code, starting in bank one. It's basic aim is to
build the 2d structure specified in it's memory. It can do this by creating
other bots (with whichever banks it likes, you can make specialised bots) and
gathering materials to build the structure (and of course building it). I
think I will do this myself shortly. It would be similar to RoboCom
http://www.cyty.com/robocom with building instead of trying to wipe the
opponents code out.
Nick
3. Re: Any ideas
------Original Message------
From: Nick Johnson <arachnid at MAD.SCIENTIST.COM>
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Sent: March 26, 2000 4:13:33 AM GMT
Subject: Re: Any ideas
I know some things I would love to see:
A platform independant windows library (not dos, just windows/x11) - ie, use
the same function calls to do the same things regardless of the platform ,so
you could write platform independant programmes. All this would need would
be
to create a library that wraps both Win32lib and the X windows library (on
the contrib page) together. I am considering doing this myself as well as
adding in other platform independant routines like converting paths, copy,
move/rename, delete, etc.
This sounds like a pretty nifty idear. Unfortunately, I'm not running LINUX.
I would be willing to collaborate though, if you're interested.
Also, if you are into games, I have a suggestion for a programmers game
(also considering this for myself): Basically, the user starts off with a
'bot'. That bot can have 1-50 banks, each with user written code in it. Once
started, the bot follows the code, starting in bank one. It's basic aim is
to
build the 2d structure specified in it's memory. It can do this by creating
other bots (with whichever banks it likes, you can make specialised bots)
and
gathering materials to build the structure (and of course building it). I
think I will do this myself shortly. It would be similar to RoboCom
http://www.cyty.com/robocom with building instead of trying to wipe the
opponents code out.
This would certainly try my talents, but it lacks entertainment value.(I
couldn't see myself playing this more than a couple of times). On the other
hand, it could be a useful "Euphoric" teaching aid for the up_and_comers out
there. If there's any response to this post, I'll consider it.
--Chris Bensler
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4. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
Mar 25, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 26, 2000
Nick Johnson wrote:
> A platform independant windows library (not dos,
> just windows/x11) - ie, use the same function calls
> to do the same things regardless of the platform, so
> you could write platform independant programmes.
> All this would need would be to create a library that
> wraps both Win32lib and the X windows library (on
> the contrib page) together.
Sounds a lot like some of the projects I've been working on. Some time back
I started working on a project called Llama that runs the same in Windows
and Linux (the Linux version wrapped GTK). If you want, there's a lot of
code you can steal from that project. I stopped working on that project when
I had difficulty reconciling how the two libraries handled graphics, as well
as trouble with the wrappers.
I'm currently working on another project with the same goals, this time
creating a minimal base library from Win32, XLib and DOS on which I can
build emulated controls that will run identically on all three platforms.
-- David Cuny
5. Re: Any ideas
>I'm currently working on another project with the same goals, >this time
>creating a minimal base library from Win32, XLib and DOS on >which I can
>build emulated controls that will run identically on all three >platforms.
>-- David Cuny
-- COMMENT
You're WIN32LIB is like a compass for EU4WIN, I'd be lost without it!
It sound like you've got it covered. Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll
leave it to the MASTER. I don't do system code anyways,YET.
-- A CUNY enthusiast
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6. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
Mar 25, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 26, 2000
Chris Bensler wrote:
> You're WIN32LIB is like a compass for EU4WIN,
> I'd be lost without it!
Thanks.
> It sound like you've got it covered. Thanks for the offer,
> but I think I'll leave it to the MASTER. I don't do system
> code anyways,YET.
You're laying it on a bit thick here...
Keep in mind that I've made several attempts at writing a cross platform
toolkit, and each has failed. So don't count on it until it's delivered. But
hopefully I've learned from each attempt, and this will be a bit more
successful.
-- David Cuny
7. Re: Any ideas
David Cuny wrote:
> Nick Johnson wrote:
>
> > A platform independant windows library (not dos,
> > just windows/x11) - ie, use the same function calls
> > to do the same things regardless of the platform, so
> > you could write platform independant programmes.
> > All this would need would be to create a library that
> > wraps both Win32lib and the X windows library (on
> > the contrib page) together.
>
> Sounds a lot like some of the projects I've been working on. Some time back
> I started working on a project called Llama that runs the same in Windows
> and Linux (the Linux version wrapped GTK). If you want, there's a lot of
> code you can steal from that project. I stopped working on that project when
> I had difficulty reconciling how the two libraries handled graphics, as well
> as trouble with the wrappers.
>
> I'm currently working on another project with the same goals, this time
> creating a minimal base library from Win32, XLib and DOS on which I can
> build emulated controls that will run identically on all three platforms.
>
> -- David Cuny
In that case I'll leave it alone for 2 resons - No sense in duplicating work,
and I have little experience with API calls etc, so if you had problems,
I probably will too.
Nick
8. Re: Any ideas
Hi Chris, How about a tile map editor and routines to use the map?
Doesn't have to specifically be used for ExoticaX or something else.
It could be use with the Neil games library, Win32 or whatever with
just a bit of code change to help use it. You could even make it
an Isometric Tile map editor...
Just a couple of game making utility ideas...
Todd Riggins
http://exotica.iwarp.com
9. Re: Any ideas
>You're laying it on a bit thick here...
Am not! u deserve it! u'v done tremendous work!
U should be credited with more than a few measly RDS bucks and stamps. u did
alot of work!
Besides I know that I'M not gonna release anything else till I get some
comments on my ExoticaX lib!
Why should I care if no one else does, right?
>Keep in mind that I've made several attempts at writing a cross >platform
>toolkit, and each has failed. So don't count on it until it's >delivered.
But
>hopefully I've learned from each attempt, and this will be a >bit more
>successful.
>-- David Cuny
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10. Re: Any ideas
Chris Bensler wrote:
> Besides I know that I'M not gonna release anything else till
> I get some comments on my ExoticaX lib!
> Why should I care if no one else does, right?
Unfortunately, there's not typically a lot of positive feedback on libraries
until someone declares they are quitting it, and then suddenly users come
out of the woodwork.
But it's usually a good idea to take a break from any large project. Stare
at any code long, and you'll start to get sick of it, no matter how cool it
is.
-- David Cuny
11. Re: Any ideas
> Hi Chris, How about a tile map editor and routines to use the >map?
>Doesn't have to specifically be used for ExoticaX or something >else.
>It could be use with the Neil games library, Win32 or whatever >with
>just a bit of code change to help use it. You could even make it
>an Isometric Tile map editor...
>Just a couple of game making utility ideas...
>Todd Riggins
>http://exotica.iwarp.com
As a matter of fact I'm already working on it! Although I forgot about it. I
was writing it for dos, but I think I'll change my tune. I'll try to make it
a stand-alone lib. Don't know how yet, but I don't like the idea of recoding
for different graphic libs.
Any solutions?
I don't know about iso maps though, haven't had any experience, but it will
be in mind. It would definitely be excellent to have.
BTW:
Don't expect me to code anything for you guys if you won't even take the
time to check out what I've already done!(Todd excluded)
I think I might make my routines exclusive for those who give me support.
As you can tell, I'm starting to get disgruntled.
All I ask, is for a LITTLE support people!
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12. Re: Any ideas
>Chris Bensler wrote:
> Besides I know that I'M not gonna release anything else till
> I get some comments on my ExoticaX lib!
> Why should I care if no one else does, right?
>David Cuny wrote:
>Unfortunately, there's not typically a lot of positive feedback >on
libraries
I don't care if it's positive! I just want some input!
I'm not gonna update it if no one even DLs it!
>until someone declares they are quitting it, and then suddenly >users come
>out of the woodwork.
>But it's usually a good idea to take a break from any large >project. Stare
>at any code long, and you'll start to get sick of it, no matter >how cool
it
>is.
>-- David Cuny
Au contraire, I'm the opposite. I've loads of unfinished work. The problem
is that I forget about them, and then when I finally do remember, they're
obsolete!
I have to go hard or go home. I coded my ExoticaX lib in less than three
days, excluding the walls I ran into.
My mind is a locomotive, once it's going, there's no stops till the end of
the line. :)
--Chris Bensler
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13. Re: Any ideas
>BTW:
>Don't expect me to code anything for you guys if you won't even take the
>time to check out what I've already done!(Todd excluded)
>I think I might make my routines exclusive for those who give me support.
>As you can tell, I'm starting to get disgruntled.
>All I ask, is for a LITTLE support people!
>
I am not bad mouthing you, but if we all took this attitude, none of the
best tools for euphoria would have got programmed. Feedback, I agree, makes
it all worthwhile, but it can take time to get responses. I should know...
and this is with Eden, a real time strategy title!
So I guess what I am saying is dont expect too much too soon.
14. Re: Any ideas
>BTW:
>Don't expect me to code anything for you guys if you won't even take the
>time to check out what I've already done!(Todd excluded)
>I think I might make my routines exclusive for those who give me support.
>As you can tell, I'm starting to get disgruntled.
>All I ask, is for a LITTLE support people!
>
>I am not bad mouthing you, but if we all took this attitude, >none of the
>best tools for euphoria would have got programmed. Feedback, I >agree,
makes
>it all worthwhile, but it can take time to get responses. I >should know...
>and this is with Eden, a real time strategy title!
>So I guess what I am saying is dont expect too much too soon.
You're right, I was out of line.
But (not to be a whiner),I do take the time to check out any new apps that
show up on RDS and comment when appropriate. It's the only way to stay
up-to-date and on top.How do you think I started ExoticaX?
Is it too much to ask for fellow programmers to support someone who is
supporting them?
I should say that EDEN is unfortunately one of the exceptions. My computer
is not up to par for running that.Plus it is quite cumbersome for a DL on my
turtle of a 28.8 modem.
I have to say it is extremely perturbing, my LIB has been on RDS for over a
week and not one single DL yet. Save Todd, who I asked to check it out(THNX)
At least if I had some DLs, I would know that people are interested.
My apologies for sounding rude before.
I guess I'm sorta using the message list as a sounding board for my
frustrations.
-Chris Bensler
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15. Re: Any ideas
Hi Chris.
> I have to say it is extremely perturbing, my LIB has been on RDS for over
a
> week and not one single DL yet. Save Todd, who I asked to check it
out(THNX)
> At least if I had some DLs, I would know that people are interested.
You have had at least one other download 'cos I did. Don't expect too much
in a week. Todd and I did the
Morfit thing many months ago but have received little feedback.
My attitude to it is to code what you code because you would like it. If
others find it useful then that is a bonus.
Good luck with the many things I am sure you are going to create with
Euphoria in the future.
Mark
16. Re: Any ideas
>>Chris Bensler wrote:
>
>> Besides I know that I'M not gonna release anything else till
>> I get some comments on my ExoticaX lib!
>> Why should I care if no one else does, right?
>I don't care if it's positive! I just want some input!
>I'm not gonna update it if no one even DLs it!
>
>>until someone declares they are quitting it, and then suddenly >users come
>>out of the woodwork.
Don't forget Chris, that its not just the people that download it now, its
also the people who will be downloading it 3 years from now. I haven't had
a chance to check it out, but probably will at some point. Take your pride
from what you produce, the quality that you put into it, not when someone
tells you how great you or your product is. Thanks for contributing, I am
sure I will check it out at some point...need all the help I can get,
especially with compicated tools like exotica and X.
Monty
17. Re: Any ideas
------Original Message------
From: M King <boot_me at GEOCITIES.COM>
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Sent: March 26, 2000 5:12:14 PM GMT
Subject: Re: Any ideas
>>Chris Bensler wrote:
>
>> Besides I know that I'M not gonna release anything else till
>> I get some comments on my ExoticaX lib!
>> Why should I care if no one else does, right?
>I don't care if it's positive! I just want some input!
>I'm not gonna update it if no one even DLs it!
>
>>until someone declares they are quitting it, and then suddenly >users come
>>out of the woodwork.
>Don't forget Chris, that its not just the people that download >it now, its
>also the people who will be downloading it 3 years from now. I >haven't
had
>a chance to check it out, but probably will at some point. >Take your
pride
>from what you produce, the quality that you put into it, not >when someone
>tells you how great you or your product is. Thanks for >contributing, I am
>sure I will check it out at some point...need all the help I >can get,
>especially with compicated tools like exotica and X.
>Monty
THNX for the input Monty. I suppose a better way to say it is that I need
BETA testers. I certainly hope I'm not BETA testing for three years!
I'm just anxious.
--Chris
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18. Re: Any ideas
Chris Bensler wrote:
> I have to say it is extremely perturbing, my LIB has been on RDS for over
a
> week and not one single DL yet. Save Todd, who I asked to check it
out(THNX)
> At least if I had some DLs, I would know that people are interested.
>
I disagree; I can personally attest to seeing it downloaded 3 times. One of
those downloads were mine.
If it's feedback you want, give people time to use it! It's a handy lib.
It's my practice, however, to make sure what works and what doesn't, before
commenting.
Greg
19. Re: Any ideas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Bensler" <bensler at MAIL.COM>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: Any ideas
> >You're laying it on a bit thick here...
> Am not! u deserve it! u'v done tremendous work!
> U should be credited with more than a few measly RDS bucks and stamps. u
did
> alot of work!
Quite true. If David Cuny and others didn't do the windoze interface, Eu
would still be dos-only, and have nowhere near as many people using it as
now. RDS should have hired more people like this long ago.
I don't know how RDS is working now, but imho they should have as a minimum:
one email/webpage person, one linux expert, one windoze expert and one dos
expert, plus some part time / contract people doing IDE developement. If
there isn't cash available to pay them, then maybe %shares (static or
dynamic or sliding scale) in the company would help people develop an IDE
like Xbasic's. That's the first IDE i have seen that allows backstepping,
changing a var that caused a GPF, and resuming execution before the GPF
happened. Programmers need tools, tools make for speed and ease of coding.
Right now, i am watching someone code in a way that if they change one ";",
it's 2 minutes before the program is running again,, it's really
frustrating.
Kat,
still using Eu for the sequences and comparative lack of var typing
20. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by Ian Smith <whoisian at HOTMAIL.COM>
Mar 26, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 27, 2000
Chris Bensler wrote...
>I'm itching to code, but I have no ideas. I'm sure I could think of
>something, but what's the point if no one will use it. Thus I turn to you.
>Is there anything that you would like to see for euphoria? Preferably
>graphics/game oriented, but I'll accept any ideas. My skills are limited,
>but I'll tackle anything worthy.
>Maybe you're working on something and could use an extra brain to relieve
>some of the workload.
>
>P.S.
> Has anyone downloaded my ExotixaX lib? I'd like to get some feedback,
>good or bad(especially bad, that's the most useful). I won't code another
>word for it until I do.
>How will I know what to fix/modify/add/junk if no one tells me.
>
>Also, if you did DL it, and your a registered euphoria user, PLEASE vote
>for it. I'm dirt poor and I need those votes so I can register too! THANX
>FOR YOUR SUPPORT :)
>
>
>--Chris Bensler
I would love to see ANY kind of real-time multiplayer game in DOS. I Don't
think anything like that has been programmed in euphoria before.
Ian Smith(AKA noSolution)
ICQ:60968534
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21. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by "Brian K. Broker" <bkb at CNW.COM>
Mar 26, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 27, 2000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Bensler"
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 4:17 AM
> >BTW:
> >Don't expect me to code anything for you guys if you won't even take the
> >time to check out what I've already done!(Todd excluded)
> >I think I might make my routines exclusive for those who give me support.
> >As you can tell, I'm starting to get disgruntled.
> >All I ask, is for a LITTLE support people!
> >
>
> >I am not bad mouthing you, but if we all took this attitude, >none of the
> >best tools for euphoria would have got programmed. Feedback, I >agree,
> makes
> >it all worthwhile, but it can take time to get responses. I >should
know...
> >and this is with Eden, a real time strategy title!
>
> >So I guess what I am saying is dont expect too much too soon.
>
> You're right, I was out of line.
> But (not to be a whiner),I do take the time to check out any new apps that
> show up on RDS and comment when appropriate. It's the only way to stay
> up-to-date and on top.How do you think I started ExoticaX?
> Is it too much to ask for fellow programmers to support someone who is
> supporting them?
Not everybody has the time to download and check out every new contribution,
especially if it's something that doesn't interest them. In my case, I
might find time to download something that interests me but have yet to
write any programs with them (for example, Exotica and the recent OpenGL
lib). If all I do is run the demo's, I may comment (something like "that's
cool... keep working on it..."). But I cannot make too many other comments
if I don't use it. The fact that there have only been a few downloads means
that a.) user's haven't gotten to it yet (only been a week) b.) user's
aren't interested in programming DirectX (but might be in the future); and
if you get more downloads but still no response it could mean a.) user
hasn't gotten beyond just running the demos or b.) the library doesn't suit
their needs. True, it's hard for the library to improve without input but
it's a fact of life that people will download something without commenting,
whether they liked the software or not.
Also, one week is nothing. A week goes by very quickly for me and I don't
get a chance to sit down and program every night. I remember when I found
Euphoria. There was this cool Win32Lib that seemed popular for Windows
programming. I sat down and wrote many demo-like programs to teach myself
how use the various functions and procedures that it had to offer. I was
quite surprised to find as many bugs as I did. (No knock on Cuny's coding
abilities, bugs happen...) What surprised me is that this library had been
around for a while and nobody had discovered them yet. (nobody else
commenting on it?)
Win32Lib usage went up as more people saw more examples of it's power (and
ease of use). The more usage, the more feedback (but after how long? a
year?) I'd say, keep working at it. Give more time for feedback. When
other's see more examples of what it can do, they might be inspired to use
it themselves (and provide feedback when they do.)
Programming "fame" doesn't happen in a week, or even a month. If you don't
use your own library for writing programs (debugging your own work) then
perhaps nobody else will see it's usefulness either. If you don't see any
reason to continue working on the library then work on something else until
comments come in. If/when they do, hopefully it will revive your spirits
and you will continue to improve the library at that time.
Good luck,
Brian
22. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by simulat <simulat at INTERGATE.BC.CA>
Mar 26, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 27, 2000
> > >BTW:
> > >Don't expect me to code anything for you guys if you won't even take
the
> > >time to check out what I've already done!(Todd excluded)
> > >I think I might make my routines exclusive for those who give me
support.
> > >As you can tell, I'm starting to get disgruntled.
> > >All I ask, is for a LITTLE support people!
Umm . . . who asked anyone to code anything? Just because things are offered
doesn't mean they are needed. I mean, it's great that people want to share
their code, but it's a bit much for them to expect everyone else to drop
what they're doing to check out every new submission in such detail that
they can give praise and constructive criticism. Code, even Euphoria, is a
very dry read.
Personally, I'm a programmer, and I don't use other people's libraries very
much. I write my own. When I have a question, I just want a concise answer,
not a pointer to a whole library of stuff that I have to then figure out how
to integrate into my code. I don't post my libraries because I don't think
they are of any use to anyone else - they are very idiosynchratic to my own
programming style. But if someone has a question that I have the answer to,
then I'm happy to help.
I know it's not so much fun as writing code, but maybe others on the list
would like to join me in a bit of a documentation project. The Manuals could
be upgraded, and we could create a set of FAQ's and HowTo's. Adam's recent
contribution of an automated Manual is super - I use it every day now, but
daily use is also showing up all the questions the manual is unclear about.
We could also undertake better documentation of the libraries that we have.
Considering all the difficulty people have had in the past with namespace
issues, etc, it might be a good idea too if we established some protocols
that people could use when submitting libraries for common use. I know many
have been calling on RDS to build that kind of protocol right into the
language, but maybe that's a bit too restrictive on those who don't want to
use it. The system of using protocols to enable different systems to
interact with each other is very common - why not have a bit of a conference
about it and set up some of our own?
Also, the postings to the list over the years are a wealth of material -
there is an interesting programming project right there in figuring out how
to extract the wheat from the chaffe in old postings.
For those who want write code, but have no interesting personal projects;
perhaps we could set up a list of requests that volunteers could undertake
to fulfill. The requester would be obligated to provide clears specs and
positive feedback to the programmer. That way, when people write communal
code, they can at least be assured of a minimal audience for their project.
Is anyone else interested in this?
Bye
Martin
23. Re: Any ideas
My apologies to all those who had to see my childish tantrum in my earlier
message.
But I have to admit, I finally got responses!
Thank you all who took the time to comment.
--Chris Bensler
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24. Re: Any ideas
simulat wrote:
snip
>I know it's not so much fun as writing code, but maybe others on the list
>would like to join me in a bit of a documentation project. The Manuals could
>be upgraded, and we could create a set of FAQ's and HowTo's. Adam's recent
>contribution of an automated Manual is super - I use it every day now, but
>daily use is also showing up all the questions the manual is unclear about.
>We could also undertake better documentation of the libraries that we have.
This would be a winner except for the nature of the project. Since there is a
lack of specifity in our current manual, some clever tests will be required to
determine just exactly what is done in certain situations and what the limits
are in many others. After all that, version x.x of the language may change
any one or all of these hard-gained pieces of information, since, according
to our fearless leader, all internal matters are subject to change.
Documenting chimeras is something that they don't teach where I come
from. If there were a commitment from the management of support for the
project, I would say that it would have a chance. Rob seems to fear that
too much information will give away his secrets, so I doubt that he will
truly cooperate.
>Considering all the difficulty people have had in the past with namespace
>issues, etc, it might be a good idea too if we established some protocols
>that people could use when submitting libraries for common use. I know many
>have been calling on RDS to build that kind of protocol right into the
>language, but maybe that's a bit too restrictive on those who don't want to
>use it. The system of using protocols to enable different systems to
>interact with each other is very common - why not have a bit of a conference
>about it and set up some of our own?
If set up right, namespace changes would not affect current code, but
would be available to among others library writers specifically to make
this kind of protocol unnecessary. Also, namespace is a limited thing
unless some changes are made. Why should a language create situations
where arbitration is necessary.
>Also, the postings to the list over the years are a wealth of material -
>there is an interesting programming project right there in figuring out how
>to extract the wheat from the chaffe in old postings.
And right after that, we will send them to clean out King Augeas' stables. It
has been a few thousand years since Hercules did it. Subjective processes
yield poorly to this kind of effort. I think that the best that could be done
here would be to filter out the flames and hellos, etc and then provide a
fully word indexed database of the rest. That would be quite useful and a
bit faster than the current archive search function.
>For those who want write code, but have no interesting personal projects;
>perhaps we could set up a list of requests that volunteers could undertake
>to fulfill. The requester would be obligated to provide clears specs and
>positive feedback to the programmer. That way, when people write communal
>code, they can at least be assured of a minimal audience for their project.
>
>Is anyone else interested in this?
>
Free contract programming...what a thought...I think you come from a kinder,
gentler world than mine. I have seen numerous cases where quite extensive
pieces of code have been written in response to questions...more than
anyone could reasonably have expected. Projects are another matter
entirely because they are not so one-sided. It would be nice if there were
some sort of project management function resident on some site similar to,
but more mature and extensive than the EuOS project.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
25. Re: Any ideas
On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Rhett wrote:
> simulat wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >I know it's not so much fun as writing code, but maybe others on the list
> >would like to join me in a bit of a documentation project....
> This would be a winner except for the nature of the project. Since there is a
> lack of specifity in our current manual, some clever tests will be required to
> determine just exactly what is done in certain situations and what the limits
> are in many others. After all that, version x.x of the language may change
> any one or all of these hard-gained pieces of information, since, according
> to our fearless leader, all internal matters are subject to change.
> Documenting chimeras is something that they don't teach where I come
> from. If there were a commitment from the management of support for the
> project, I would say that it would have a chance. Rob seems to fear that
> too much information will give away his secrets, so I doubt that he will
> truly cooperate.
This is getting to be a very old refrain. Please tell us how much easier it is
for you to get info on the internals of, for example, Delphi, or how you
regularly correspond with Bill Gates to find out how Visual C++ works.
These things certainly have internal matters subject to change, so of course
no one has written any books or documentation for any of Microsoft or Borland's
products, have they?
Irv
26. Re: Any ideas
Irv Mullins wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Rhett wrote:
>> simulat wrote:
>>
>> snip
>>
>> >I know it's not so much fun as writing code, but maybe others on the list
>> >would like to join me in a bit of a documentation project....
>
>> This would be a winner except for the nature of the project. Since there is a
>> lack of specifity in our current manual, some clever tests will be required
>> to
>> determine just exactly what is done in certain situations and what the limits
>> are in many others. After all that, version x.x of the language may change
>> any one or all of these hard-gained pieces of information, since, according
>> to our fearless leader, all internal matters are subject to change.
>> Documenting chimeras is something that they don't teach where I come
>> from. If there were a commitment from the management of support for the
>> project, I would say that it would have a chance. Rob seems to fear that
>> too much information will give away his secrets, so I doubt that he will
>> truly cooperate.
>
>This is getting to be a very old refrain. Please tell us how much easier it is
>for you to get info on the internals of, for example, Delphi, or how you
>regularly correspond with Bill Gates to find out how Visual C++ works.
>
>These things certainly have internal matters subject to change, so of course
>no one has written any books or documentation for any of Microsoft or Borland's
>products, have they?
>
>Irv
Cheap and wrong. Now, shall we compare notes on how much we dislike
MS. Apples and oranges. What might be the ratio of lines of code written
for Euphoria against any one of these. Also, most of these languages are
strongly typed...a description that doesn't even come to mind when
Euphoria is the subject. Also, despite any marketing flap to the contrary,
these things are written to international standards that have been in place
for some years. When the documentation that is provided is not
sufficiently detailed, one has the standard to go to for comparison and
creating tests...sometimes, even other implementations can be tested.
With Delphi, if you are using the builder, you can generate the same thing
in C/C++ that gives you a cross check against results.
However much overkill and dross there is in the documentation available for
these others, if one wishes to dig for a while, answers are usually available.
There are also a thousand programmers for every Euphoria programmer,
so problems/ambiguities are found and reported much more quickly. Also,
vendors know that large departures with that big a base will buy them loss
of customers. If, for example, Borland or MS at this point in time make
such huge changes to a compiler that it breaks without warning a significant
part of the existing base, they have to consider whether people will move
to a stable, available open source base if that much effort is required. While
RDS appears to have been fairly careful in that respect, Euphoria is such
a long distance from other languages that the barrier is high.
I did not say that it could not or should not be done. I was pointing out that
support from RDS for such a project would make it much easier and most
probably more correct. My feeling is that Rob will evaluate a particular area
of information on how much it possibly reveals of his precious secrets
rather than on how helpful it is to the programmer. He has said enough
things along that line that I think that is a reasonable interpretation. Now I
know that I am an easy target, but I don't hold any of the keys. I think that
you might ask more of someone to whom you have paid money.
Contrary to expressed emotion, I am not your or Euphoria's enemy. I liked
the language the instant I laid eyes on it. There is one gate on it's future and
that one is rusty and built with a one way hinge. It is my belief that Rob
can probably program up just about anything that he wants and fairly
quickly at that. He appears to be inhibited by his internal image of the
language...whatever that may be. He also appears to be inhibited from
explaining himself or his product to any useful degree. He also appears
unable and/or unwilling to build bridges...personal, philosophical, or
programming. The only thing that is likely to change that, if it is possible,
is demand from a large group of the most consistent and capable
contributors to the list...and I do not include myself in that group. So, you
can aim all the illfounded sarcasm that you wish at me. It won't solve
one problem that you have. There is only one source for that...other than
yourself.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
27. Re: Any ideas
On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Rhett wrote:
> Irv Mullins wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Rhett wrote:
> >> simulat wrote:
> >>
> >> snip
> >>
> >> >I know it's not so much fun as writing code, but maybe others on the list
> >> >would like to join me in a bit of a documentation project....
> >
> >> This would be a winner except for the nature of the project. Since there is
> >> a
> >> lack of specifity in our current manual, some clever tests will be required
> >> to
> >> determine just exactly what is done in certain situations and what the
> >> limits
> >> are in many others. After all that, version x.x of the language may change
> >> any one or all of these hard-gained pieces of information, since, according
> >> to our fearless leader, all internal matters are subject to change.
> >> Documenting chimeras is something that they don't teach where I come
> >> from. If there were a commitment from the management of support for the
> >> project, I would say that it would have a chance. Rob seems to fear that
> >> too much information will give away his secrets, so I doubt that he will
> >> truly cooperate.
> >
<snip>
> >These things certainly have internal matters subject to change, so of course
> >no one has written any books or documentation for any of Microsoft or
> >Borland's
> >products, have they?
> >
> >Irv
> Cheap and wrong. Now, shall we compare notes on how much we dislike
> MS. Apples and oranges.
Simply diversionary tactics; whether I like or dislike Borland or Microsoft
has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so I'll snip the rest...
I enjoy comments and suggestions made by people who want to improve
Euphoria. I've certainly made many myself, in the past, usually to be ignored,
or informed, politely, why I'm wrong.
When such suggestions are made by someone who has, as far as I can tell,
steadfastly refused to offer even a single line of code to enlighten others on
this list, and who has demonstrated to my satisfaction that he hasn't even read
the Euphoria manual from start to finish, I can't give them much credence.
> It won't solve one problem that you have. There is only one source for
that...other than yourself.
Gee, the Emperor really gets pissed when someone tells him he has no clothes....
Irv
28. Re: Any ideas
Irv Mullins wrote:
snip of prev post
>> Cheap and wrong. Now, shall we compare notes on how much we dislike
>> MS. Apples and oranges.
>
>Simply diversionary tactics; whether I like or dislike Borland or Microsoft
>has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so I'll snip the rest...
Again, cheap. The comments that I made went into that and several other
items. If you pick your quotes, you can "win" almost any argument. My
purpose is not to win, but to get some movement in this product.
>I enjoy comments and suggestions made by people who want to improve
>Euphoria. I've certainly made many myself, in the past, usually to be ignored,
>or informed, politely, why I'm wrong.
Funny, never noted you taking exception to being ignored, however valid
your request.
>When such suggestions are made by someone who has, as far as I can tell,
>steadfastly refused to offer even a single line of code to enlighten others on
>this list, and who has demonstrated to my satisfaction that he hasn't even read
>the Euphoria manual from start to finish, I can't give them much credence.
Actually, I have read it...several times. That is so unusual as to be worth
note in and of itself. I normally do a little basic reading in a language, and
then read other parts as needed. The first thing that I tried, was to put the
whole doc into one html file so that pointers in the existing html would
work and I could still search the whole. I never got to completing that, and
Adam's effort has made it almost unnecessary. Adam's effort has also
made it apparent to more than one person how incomplete the actual
information is. It is so incomplete and so poor that many, many items
remain in my mind as completely undefined. The questions asked by even
experienced writers on this list when they go into a new area for them
indicate that divining meaning from the manual is not necessarily easy.
>> It won't solve one problem that you have. There is only one source for
>that...other than yourself.
>
>Gee, the Emperor really gets pissed when someone tells him he has no
>clothes....
No, Irv, I just dislike cheap shots in place of reasoned discourse. You
may continue to snipe at my lack of code production, and I will continue
to ignore it. I've written hundreds of thousands of lines of code of
varying varieties in my career, but I have read a thousand or more for
every line that I have written. I don't have to prove to anyone that I can
write code. My favorite work has been in the design and debug ends of
the process. I only write code when I can't get someone else to write it
for me. Euphoria has tempted me, and I have written some small things
for my own use. I don't believe that the language is at a point that I
would like to write distributable code for. Maybe my standards for that are
different than yours( note I didn't say better...just different).
Again, as you have noted, it is unlikely that I will produce any of the things
that you or others desire, at least at this level of the language. So, if
you want change you will have to seek it elsewhere, as I have. I am
seeking redress of grievances in a matter of business. Feel free to disagree
with me, but if you come after me personally online, I will feel free to
return the favor and that can benefit no one.
I am sufficiently disgusted with the lack of follow thru on the part of some
of the most distinguished members of this list, that I don't much care at
this point. If you won't stand up for your rights as paying users, then there
is precious little that any can do. You have all made requests and a
majority have requested a fairly consistent subset of the whole. Other
than minor adjustments, the only concession made by the management
has been that namespace handling needs some form of resolution. The
rest have been basically ignored. Even his latest remarks were little
beyond a "I won't discuss it further" when he didn't really discuss it at
all, substantively. On the basis of Euphoria alone, I am unwilling to give
him the kind of respect that I would a Knuth, Iverson, Torvalds, etc.
Most of those people have been very responsive and available throughout
their careers and have wide public records of contributions to this field
that we all appear to love. I read in lots of places and his name has never
come up outside of this venue. That is not to say that Mr. Craig is not
most capable. Unless he learns to communicate better, it will not matter.
If Mr. Craig were to give us some idea of his plans, he would find that most
would be very flexible in waiting for those plans to come to fruition. It is
the "not knowing" that causes people to become frustrated. It is the
disrespect of taking people's money and expecting them to blindly go
whither he leads that causes anger in any with a backbone. I realize that
there are some of what I call "super hobbyists" on this list that just
look at such things as puzzles for them to solve. They are really not
interested in how the solution might fit into a structure or permanently
extend the language. They are just interested in the exercise of "doing it".
In the world of play, those are admirable goals. When money is requested,
play may be part of the whole, but it cannot be the whole. Money for
the use of an item, and then more money when and if the improvements
come out imply a contractual and long-term relationship between two
business parties. Half of this relationship is not meeting ordinary
standards for communication and responsiveness.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
29. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
Mar 27, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 28, 2000
Everett Williams writes:
> Money for the use of an item, and then more money when
> and if the improvements come out imply a contractual and
> long-term relationship between two business parties. Half
> of this relationship is not meeting ordinary standards for
> communication and responsiveness.
Everett,
You paid $39.00 for version 2.1.
You were given 2.2 for free.
I spent far more than $39 of my time
disproving your totally false, persistent and
defamatory accusations of a virus in Euphoria
a few months ago, not to mention the time I've
spent reading and occasionally replying to your
personal e-mail as well as postings to the list.
If you do not feel you got full value for your $39, I will
happily refund it, provided you:
1. destroy your copy of the Complete Edition
2. unsubscribe from this mailing list and don't return.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
30. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Mar 27, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 28, 2000
Robert Craig wrote:
>Everett Williams writes:
>> Money for the use of an item, and then more money when
>> and if the improvements come out imply a contractual and
>> long-term relationship between two business parties. Half
>> of this relationship is not meeting ordinary standards for
>> communication and responsiveness.
>
>Everett,
>You paid $39.00 for version 2.1.
>You were given 2.2 for free.
>I spent far more than $39 of my time
>disproving your totally false, persistent and
>defamatory accusations of a virus in Euphoria
>a few months ago, not to mention the time I've
>spent reading and occasionally replying to your
>personal e-mail as well as postings to the list.
>
>If you do not feel you got full value for your $39, I will
>happily refund it, provided you:
> 1. destroy your copy of the Complete Edition
> 2. unsubscribe from this mailing list and don't return.
>
Ah, the dragon sallies forth from his lair. Must have been
damn smokey in there.
Regards, my maiden aunt. I readily admitted my error in
the case of the virus, but the anti-virus product ID'd your product
as having a virus. Defamatory has a very specific legal
meaning, and unless you are prepared to back it up, I
suggest you keep it to yourself. If you'd spend half the effort
that you spend getting your back up in the air in the process
of communicating with everyone your plans for this business
that we are participating in through our money, you would
have little to complain of and a whole lot more satisfied users.
If your business were public, you could not survive even one
shareholders meeting with the lame excuse you have for not
producing any plans for the product. Unless you had managed
to maintain a controlling share in the company, you would be
swiftly kicked out of the chair, relegated to a small room with
computer and told to do what you do best while others better
suited handled the business side of the enterprise.
Example two, imagine trying to get a little venture capital with your
current approach. That would be good for a few back room laughs
that would probably make the circuit of every VC in the country.
Your paying users are as close to shareholders or VC as you will
ever get with your current approach. Treated with respect and
provided with a minimal amount of information, they can be a docile,
well mannered group of supporters. Kept in the dark and fed
mushroom food, they will eventually vote as I have or with their
feet as Mr. Crook and I am sure many others have.
I'll be glad to leave under the following terms. You keep your money,
and provide me with free full editions of every future version of Euphoria
or it's successor products under normal restrictions for all other licensees,
and on a timely basis until the point at which all versions of Euphoria or
it's successor products become free and open source to all users. In return,
I will cease to participate in the list and only take the digest version. I will
only communicate privately to those on the list who wish to receive my
communications. I'll only communicate with you when I don't receive my
new versions, and I will do that privately.
That's as good as it gets. If you don't want rid of me
that bad, you can try providing some of the items that I have noted.
None of them will truly hurt you, and most of them will improve your
business...at least as far as Euphoria goes. Whatever you announce
will create some uproar and get you a whole host of positive and
negative remarks...which you can use as you wish. Note that I am not
demanding any particular change in Euphoria. I am asking for
businesslike communication between you, the author, and us, the users.
I am asking for some level of planning that will enable us, the users, to
plan whether we wish to do as Mr. Crook has done or wait until the
plans bear fruit. I suspect that you can even change the plans if you
provide some decent substantiation of your reasons. Now, if you can't
plan, have no vision for the future, and can't find the words to communicate
to the users once every month or two, that will become apparent, also,
and we can all quit this little charade, and expend our efforts elsewhere.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
31. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at MAIL.COM>
Mar 27, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 28, 2000
Robert Craig writes:
>Everett,
>You paid $39.00 for version 2.1.
>You were given 2.2 for free.
>I spent far more than $39 of my time
>disproving your totally false, persistent and
>defamatory accusations of a virus in Euphoria
>a few months ago, not to mention the time I've
>spent reading and occasionally replying to your
>personal e-mail as well as postings to the list.
I think you should've bit your tongue HERE, Rob.
>If you do not feel you got full value for your $39, I will
>happily refund it, provided you:
> 1. destroy your copy of the Complete Edition
> 2. unsubscribe from this mailing list and don't return.
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
Here, here Rob!
But a word of advice to the both of you:
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you"
Before I go any further, I should say that I am NOT a registered user as of
yet. But this is only due to the fact that I am piss poor right now.I fully
intend to have a registered copy of EU ASAP.(whenever that may be)
Rob:
Although I can whole-heartedly understand your attitude, where would EU be
without people like E.Williams to support it from the other end?
As a suggestion, based on other peoples suggestions for a more funtional msg
list. I think that there should be a better formatted message forum that
allows content search capabilities and filtering of STRICTLY EU related
material. The filtering could be done voluntarily by non and registered
users alike (with an incentive of course).
--(I think this one should be a must)
Another suggestion, would be to add a polling forum where users could post
suggestions and others could vote on them. In this way people like myself
could refer to it and see what the community actually needs or wants, you
could offer the RDS bucks based on the number of votes for that utility as
an incentive with the condition that they provide support for it. In this
way, I think it would drammatically increase the development process of the
'USEFUL' additions to EU, and at the same time, reduce the plethora of
'JUNK' utilities in the RDS archives and contribution list that have been
building up over the years.
Also, I believe this would make the EU community a litte more friendly.
These ideas weren't really thought through. I just wrote them as they came
to mind. So they're the basics of the concepts, that's all.
Everett:
At LESS than $50, I think of EU more as shareware than a full-fledged
software package. And just like any other shareware, you'll get limited
support, because the majority of the users aren't even registered.
Let's just say for example( and this is probably generous ) that there are
20,000 users, and 20% of these are registered. That's
$100,000 . How many years has it been around? How many more years is it
gonna be around? How much of this money was put back into EU? And how much
time has Rob spent supporting it? I would be suprised if he even made money!
You can hardly expect him to spend his FREE time responding to everything
that everyone wants/dislikes. You paid the money for the language that it IS
, NOT the language that it WILL be or even SHOULD be. That's the beauty of
PD, try before you buy.
I may be wrong but, where does it say that registered users will recieve
complete support for EU?
Criticism is good, but only if it's constructive.
I think your criticism should end at the forum. Don't point fingers(
metaphorically, that's how they get broken ). Instead, direct your comments
at your fellow users. In this way your comments stay constructive, and if
people agree, they'll stand behind you, including RDS. Unless RDS genuinely
doesn't care about the development of the language, which I highly doubt.
If there's enough demand for something, RDS will HAVE to comply in order to
keep the language alive.
Everyone:
Please don't reply telling me how wrong I am. Rather, take the good and
forget the rest, or improve on what i've written. I'm tired of reading
peoples badmouthing, as I'm sure you all are.
I think I've said it well?
-- Chris Bensler
______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
32. Re: Any ideas
- Posted by Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
Mar 27, 2000
-
Last edited Mar 28, 2000
Everett Williams writes:
> I'll be glad to leave under the following terms. You keep
> your money, and provide me with free full editions of
> every future version of Euphoria or it's successor products
> under normal restrictions for all other licensees, and on a
> timely basis until the point at which all versions of Euphoria
> or it's successor products become free and open source to
> all users. In return, I will cease to participate
> in the list and only take the digest version. I will only
> communicate privately to those on the list who wish to
> receive my communications. I'll only communicate with
> you when I don't receive my new versions, and I will do
> that privately.
Some raccoons recently took up residence in my house.
They got in via the chimney and lived in the basement behind
the panelling. I tried many approaches to getting them out.
A Ghetto blaster, mothballs, banging on the basement wall.
Nothing worked. I finally had to pay $220 (Canadian) for a
professional to come and install a one-way door on the chimney,
and later put a screen on it.
In comparison this sounds like an excellent bargain.
It's a deal.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
33. Re: Any ideas
Robert Craig wrote:
>Everett Williams writes:
>> I'll be glad to leave under the following terms. You keep
>> your money, and provide me with free full editions of
>> every future version of Euphoria or it's successor products
>> under normal restrictions for all other licensees, and on a
>> timely basis until the point at which all versions of Euphoria
>> or it's successor products become free and open source to
>> all users. In return, I will cease to participate
>> in the list and only take the digest version. I will only
>> communicate privately to those on the list who wish to
>> receive my communications. I'll only communicate with
>> you when I don't receive my new versions, and I will do
>> that privately.
>
>Some raccoons recently took up residence in my house.
>They got in via the chimney and lived in the basement behind
>the panelling. I tried many approaches to getting them out.
>A Ghetto blaster, mothballs, banging on the basement wall.
>Nothing worked. I finally had to pay $220 (Canadian) for a
>professional to come and install a one-way door on the chimney,
>and later put a screen on it.
>
>In comparison this sounds like an excellent bargain.
>It's a deal.
>
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
Accepted. You have made a mistake that you may never understand
by offering such a deal to anyone, much less someone who is
actually a proponent of your language. You consider me an enemy
and a pest, and I am sure that little will change your opinion. The
deal that you have made would tell a thoughtful man that something
was amiss. The item that I have requested from you is the only
thing that you have that I consider of value. I still have hope that that
value will increase. Maybe when my voice is gone, you will hear my words.
I will take you for a man of your word and expect my license for the
Linux version to be in the next post...I believe that you have my email
address.
Since this is my final post on the list, I have a few things to
say. I cannot think when in recent years, I have seen a more giving or
supportive group. I have enjoyed both the friendly and the unfriendly.
I have received both support and upbraiding and enjoyed both. Jiri,
Rod, David, Mike Nelson, Pete King, Brian, Bernie, Ralph, Gary, Kat and
many others have provided me with much to think about in both list
and private post. Most have my email address and I will welcome any
posts that you may wish to send my way. Of course, you may address
me through the list, and I will read. My reply will be by private email. Any
that I email who don't wish to hear from me may say so either privately
or publicly and I will respect their wishes.
I hope that the list prospers and all in it. I hope that Rob learns. All that
is dismissed from sight is not necessarily lost to thought.
Thanks to all,
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
34. Re: Any ideas
Thanks, Rob.
- Colin Taylor
Robert Craig wrote:
> It's a deal.
35. Re: Any ideas
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Robert Craig <rds at ATTCANADA.NET>
Aan: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Verzonden: dinsdag 28 maart 2000 6:26
Onderwerp: Re: Any ideas
> Everett Williams writes:
> > I'll be glad to leave under the following terms. You keep
> > your money, and provide me with free full editions of
> > every future version of Euphoria or it's successor products
> > under normal restrictions for all other licensees, and on a
> > timely basis until the point at which all versions of Euphoria
> > or it's successor products become free and open source to
> > all users. In return, I will cease to participate
> > in the list and only take the digest version. I will only
> > communicate privately to those on the list who wish to
> > receive my communications. I'll only communicate with
> > you when I don't receive my new versions, and I will do
> > that privately.
>
> Some raccoons recently took up residence in my house.
> They got in via the chimney and lived in the basement behind
> the panelling. I tried many approaches to getting them out.
> A Ghetto blaster, mothballs, banging on the basement wall.
> Nothing worked. I finally had to pay $220 (Canadian) for a
> professional to come and install a one-way door on the chimney,
> and later put a screen on it.
>
> In comparison this sounds like an excellent bargain.
> It's a deal.
>
> Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
This comparison doesn't sound right to me: I think raccoons are quite nice
animals.
Ad Rienks
36. Re: Any ideas
<Snipping miles and miles of useless text>
>Everyone:
>Please don't reply telling me how wrong I am. Rather, take the good
and
>forget the rest, or improve on what i've written. I'm tired of
reading
>peoples badmouthing, as I'm sure you all are.
>I think I've said it well?
> -- Chris Bensler
>
Yes, I agree...
I am not registered too. because I don't use euphoria yet...
(waiting sparc-solaris port) BUT I am reading the list for a long time, and
you must all admit that since Everett has arrived in this great family,
there is much more flames, criticism, even insults in the whole list.
Cool boys! (and girls, sorry)
We are here cause we wanted to. cause euphoria is great. because
there WAS always kind people ready to help.
as a BONUS, you can ask the creator for help or features. take it as
it is.
and , dear Rett, listen. there is no insult here.
- we all have understood what you want. no need to repeat. I admit
that you are often right, theoretically. but practically, let time for
evolutions.
- your mails are beautifully written. but TOO LONG !!!! I can't yet
read so much ! it is an advice: if you want be read, make short! it is a
programming list, not a tv-show.
conclusion:
I won't read a response if it takes more than, say 10 lines.
and sorry for the helpfull people...
Riwal Raude
rauder at thmulti.com
37. Re: Any ideas
Oh , he's gone?
my mailbox was so full I could't wait reading all...
sorry again. let's tackle with the work again.
For your documentation project, I'm ready to help, for a french translation.
Riwal Raude
rauder at thmulti.com
38. Re: Any ideas
Raude Riwal escribió:
Hi all,
> Oh , he's gone?
> my mailbox was so full I could't wait reading all...
> sorry again. let's tackle with the work again.
> For your documentation project, I'm ready to help, for a french translation.
if you need so,I can help with a spanish and/or catalan translation.
Luis,
hoping to bee helpfull
>
>
> Riwal Raude
> rauder at thmulti.com
