Re: Ideas for next Eu [same mail, spell-checked, more readable]
- Posted by nieuwen at XS4ALL.NL
Nov 14, 1999
This is the same mail as I sent before, only this time, I spell-checked it, and
improved some
of the worst sentences. Sorry, about the mail trashing. I saw my own mail and
noticed the
quality (or lack there of) of my English and .. OUCH .. .. so, here it goes
again ..
> Constants occupy real memory and namespace and are inherently
No, they don't occupy real memory. The interpreter just 'fills' em in, and
releases the
memory. Would they occupy real memory, you would be allowed to make constants
dynamically, rather than only on the top-level. (so, they can all be replaced
before the
code is start)
> I absolutely deny that peek and poke are the only way to accomplish
> what you are speaking of here. Even C allows access to variables in
> inline assembler rather than force the type of machine code level
> programming that peek and poke generate.
The grammar of language, determines how we manage our code. This I won't get
into now.
The routines/commands of a language, determine what is possible with Euphoria.
There
are a million things really *not* possible without peek & poke. From custom
mouse routines,
to sharing memory with other applications...
About these much better alternatives you are reffering to .. ("even C allows ..
") .. all those
alternatives can be added to Euphoria by writing a routine and putting it into a
library. Those
routines, however, would use peek and poke. Now what if you like your
alternative and I
like another, should Robert add them both or should he add peek & poke, which
allows us
both to add our own alternative ?
Programs are about automation.You don't want to program. You want to be able to
say ..
"eh like-doom, but eh .. the gun should look like .. and .. " ... or you could
just write the
freaking engine yourself in Euphoria. Low-level access is a must. Think about
it. Technically,
you should be able to do anything with Euphoria. From any type of algorithm to
access to
any part of the system.
> allow a less than optimum solution. Usually the problem is altered by
> non-technical factors such as time, money, etc.
Eh .. ok.
> code that will truly injure the clean, minimal nature of Euphoria before
> they are excised.
Completely the opposite. What you want to do is limit what is possible with
Euphoria.
Less goals, less features. Irregardless of the fact I couldn't care less (or
more) about
minimalistic (it's not a goal on itself ... it's just a word you came across in
Robertīs mail the
other day 
... now, speaking about cheating (as you were accusing Roderick
of) ...
*thatīs*
cheating. Less goals, less features, more minimalistic ... you really think it
works this way ?
With the routine-id mechanism that you are attacking as well, David is capable
of writing
Liama. About 99% of Liama runs using any OS and only 1% is the OS-specific part.
Would
routine-id and dll/linkage be replaced by specific interfaces that differ for
each OS, he would
have to rewrite Liama for each OS.
Minimalistic you say ?
> I don't ordinarily like to insert comments in the middle of a paragraph,
> but this time I must. Having Euphoria ready to and capable of
> handling the business programming environment is my most
> fervent wish. IDE's and similar items are just tools to effect that end.
> I'm not into "really cool" of any kind. I'm into getting work done. I just
> borrowed somebody else's phrase.
Most of us are doing this Euphoria stuff for fun, or for little solid tools and
games Weīre not
creating huge tools like MS Word or complex internet browsers. Neither are you.
Neither
are most of the programmers out there. Nowadays, its about integration and code
management. Creatings tools with more than hundred programmers are the same time
We arenīt doing that and neither are you. Also, those tools are already there.
Why re-invent
a wheel, instead of creating something new, fill a gap, ....... maybe some
prefer a bicycle ..
over a car.
> That must have been my evil twin 
My only interest in GUI's is
> that they are where most programming is done these days. If
Yeah, yeah. Cities are where most people live. Is this because of the much
healthier
environment
? Is this because of the all the great advantages of living in a big city. You
know, smoke,
traffic jams .. etc. I couldnīt care less about "where most programming is done
these days"
So, now you want to cut down the trees, and turn this forest into big city no.
23987u52
Great!
> Sancho Panza's burro. The big "IF" is "DOES Rob want to see
> major commercial use of his language", period. I WOULD DEARLY
Come on. Would he do that, MS Euphoria would be out in a week, packed with every
new
version of windows. Within a month, it would be market leader in the 'euphoria
section'.
Maybe Robert is just picking fights he can win. You think its all *that* easy.
That it really
works like your simplified version of reality, simplified in need for you
comprehension.
Maybe, just maybe, there's more to it.
Plus, trying to create a perfect language, has got nothing to do with a
development curve, a
future plan, or whatever. Only huge companies take that route. They, purposely,
create an
non ideal program, that can be replaced by better versions for years to come.
Honest, a
perfect OS is not commercially effective, unless you patent every part of it.
But I don't think
any small company is capable of such high legal investments, needed in today's
-out-of-
balance- society where courts rule over the other two (what were they again ?
lol.) aspects of
democracy that should have been able to keep the judge from playing god.
> Of course, anyone who learns on Euphoria is really going to hate
> the "real" world of C, etc. and wonder why Euphoria never grew up.
I'm already hating C. So why create another ?
You can't be on top of a mountain and be perfect. Goverments are _never_ right.
Jalousy
and affection _really_ are the two only emotion, we're having. The best music is
_never_ to
be found in charts, pushed by their marketing agents (ouch, there, I said it!)
Looks _are_
important ...................... and Euphoria can't be great and be used by the
average user as
well. It just doesn't work that way!
The average user, uses average tools. The average music listener listens to
average music.
And the average tree catches an average amount of wind. You're an idealist, like
most of us
are, but you should be realistic as well. Euphoria's development is part of
Robert's income.
We all want to change the world, but are _you_ risking your ass ?
> corporation in the late 70s when b meant a big number and didn't make
> anybody think of Bill Gates.
Bill Gates got the average user involved in PC's.
What does it got to do with us ?
> >>Insult was no part of my intent.
> >>Progress is.
> >
> >Likewise with my comments.
Likewise.
> If the answer to the above critical question is YES, then I guess I will
> try to pipe down and wait to see what Rob's next move is. I am not into
> guru's or other such theocracies, no matter how God-like or capable,
> so being dependent on the whim of a single person gives me gas.
Learn C. Write your own language. Why not use this urge to independence as a
creative
stimulus ?
You _are_ right, it's unfortunate that we're all so dependent on so many things
completely out
of our control and influence. Most of these dependencies are just complex
mechanics of
either politically, socially or technically systems of todayīs society, rather
than real persons
you can discuss with. Wouldn't it be great if there was a director of social
rules, open for any
new ideas and criticism ? ...
I think we're lucky that we are talking to a person. Rather than to a brick
wall, company, or
government. Would this mailing list still be possible when Euphoria is as big as
you want it to
be ? No it, wouldn't .. how would you feel when you've got a mail like you had,
but didn't
have a place to sent it to ... when you weren't part of the discussion.
Dependance is one
thing. At least you're able to have some influence.
Ralf Nieuwenhuijsen
[[ Email ]]
nieuwen at xs4all.nl
ralf_n at email.com
[[ I-Seek-You ]]
UIN: 9389920
[[ The Elevator ]]
http://www.xs4all.nl/~nieuwen
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