1. ADV.Games & Java
[Paul,AdvGames]
>I'm suprised that nobody liked 3D isometric,
>It seems like such a cool way to play,
well, for me, it's not that I don't like it...
it's usually at the wrong 'angle'...
its usually a sharp/severe angle and everything gets
obscured by like *everything* else...
in HOMM2, the angle is lower, flatter, and seems more
natural, as if you were in a hover just a wee bit off
the ground, but not flat like a true-first/third-person-3D.
now, 3D would be almost out of the question for multiuser,
it's been tried and failed (when referring to RPG's... real
RPG's... closest i've seen is battlespire, and it sucked)
because of the huge amounts of data that is added on top
of the 3D engine...
all those stats, and objects and areas and mobs and
conversation and such just bogs the 3d engine,
which can usually barely keep up as it is in multiuser and
(if its say... quake) its only dealing with like a half
dozen inventory items, a dozen weapons and like 2 pieces
of armor, no interaction or conversation, and childish
flipswitch puzzles that have little bearing on
a _real_ quest...
not to mention the lack of shopkeepers/legal systems/
political systems/transports/familiars... :)
sooooooooooooooo......
if we cheat, and do make it 3d by porting the 3dfx library
(glide.h) or perhaps openGL, then, the bulk of the processing
of the 3d scenes is offloaded to hardware... we can then
smooge ticks from the processor to keep track of the _other_
data (no small chore)...
if battlespire (and perhaps a few others i can think of)
for example, had done this, instead of SW rendering, they
could have actually done something... it had a decent
basis for a nicely fine detailed RPG, but the renderer
and the socket work (it kept losing synch and crashing)
needed severe help...
>it also has a 3D feel in the way that you can walk under
>or behind stuff. Like if you walk directly behind a building
>you will disappear as if being hidden by the building.
yeah, see there ya go... now, mebbe dropping that angle
to ~ohhh 15 deg??? from the horizon... and I myself could
live with that... (just have to see it i suppose...)
>I really like the idea of pets or familiars and I don't
>think it would be hard to implement.
glad u like it...
one interesting thing to note is that once you have the
pet code in (which i suggest doing first...) then writing
the code for 'charm' becomes trivial (just snarf and steal
the pet code)
>I also like the idea of vehicles, although it may take a
>little work to make work.
vehicles are always a prob... be it in text muds or
otherwise... dunno why that is :)
>As far legal and political systems, I will have to wait until
>I am nearer to completetion, before I can see how I can make it work.
i keep wondering... is that really wise...
i keep thinking that it needs to have some plumbing put in
_before_ you get that close to completion, or (i can see this
happening) it might wind up being a kludgy hack...
will think on it all some more...
[Java1.2]
>I just tested sieve.ex against my port of sieve.ex for
>Java 1.2 and the results were:
>9486 sieves per second for sieve.java
>3840.5 sieves per second for sieve.ex
{and from bench.doc from EU2}
Language Benchmark Result
-------- --------- ------
Java (JDK 1.0.2) sieve Euphoria is 8x faster
Perl (PC version) fibonnacci Euphoria is 65x faster
PC-LISP v3.0 queens Euphoria is 28x faster
Small C Interpreter sieve Euphoria is 545x faster
We have yet to find an interpreter that even comes close to Euphoria in
speed.
hrmmmmm... ummm ut oh :/
apparently, the only? explanation? is that 1.0.2 got
*seriously* upgraded when it went to 1.2.0???
from 8 times _slower_ to 3 times _faster_??????
whew...
but, I'm still not gonna "switch" to Java for my
'normal' coding :) I'm a diehard EUian now...
however, i think we need to poke, prod and nudge
rob a wee bit ;)
--Hawke'
2. Re: ADV.Games & Java
Hawke
No, I'm sorry I did not mean actual 3D as in something that would
require a 3DFX card. The way I have it setup is each tile on the map
has a set of attributes (character, color, boundary, attribute,
subattribute.) The attribute and subattribute can be assigned scripts.
But it can also make the player visible or in visible, like you went
behind an object. So essentially the angle depends on how the map
is drawn.
Thanks
Paul Martin
At 04:13 PM 12/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>[Paul,AdvGames]
>>I'm suprised that nobody liked 3D isometric,
>>It seems like such a cool way to play,
>well, for me, it's not that I don't like it...
>
>it's usually at the wrong 'angle'...
>
>its usually a sharp/severe angle and everything gets
>obscured by like *everything* else...
>
>in HOMM2, the angle is lower, flatter, and seems more
>natural, as if you were in a hover just a wee bit off
>the ground, but not flat like a true-first/third-person-3D.
>
>now, 3D would be almost out of the question for multiuser,
>it's been tried and failed (when referring to RPG's... real
>RPG's... closest i've seen is battlespire, and it sucked)
>because of the huge amounts of data that is added on top
>of the 3D engine...
>
>all those stats, and objects and areas and mobs and
>conversation and such just bogs the 3d engine,
>which can usually barely keep up as it is in multiuser and
>(if its say... quake) its only dealing with like a half
>dozen inventory items, a dozen weapons and like 2 pieces
>of armor, no interaction or conversation, and childish
>flipswitch puzzles that have little bearing on
>a _real_ quest...
>
>not to mention the lack of shopkeepers/legal systems/
>political systems/transports/familiars... :)
>
>sooooooooooooooo......
>
>if we cheat, and do make it 3d by porting the 3dfx library
>(glide.h) or perhaps openGL, then, the bulk of the processing
>of the 3d scenes is offloaded to hardware... we can then
>smooge ticks from the processor to keep track of the _other_
>data (no small chore)...
>
>if battlespire (and perhaps a few others i can think of)
>for example, had done this, instead of SW rendering, they
>could have actually done something... it had a decent
>basis for a nicely fine detailed RPG, but the renderer
>and the socket work (it kept losing synch and crashing)
>needed severe help...
>
>>it also has a 3D feel in the way that you can walk under
>>or behind stuff. Like if you walk directly behind a building
>>you will disappear as if being hidden by the building.
>yeah, see there ya go... now, mebbe dropping that angle
>to ~ohhh 15 deg??? from the horizon... and I myself could
>live with that... (just have to see it i suppose...)
>
>>I really like the idea of pets or familiars and I don't
>>think it would be hard to implement.
>glad u like it...
>one interesting thing to note is that once you have the
>pet code in (which i suggest doing first...) then writing
>the code for 'charm' becomes trivial (just snarf and steal
>the pet code)
>
>>I also like the idea of vehicles, although it may take a
>>little work to make work.
>vehicles are always a prob... be it in text muds or
>otherwise... dunno why that is :)
>
>>As far legal and political systems, I will have to wait until
>>I am nearer to completetion, before I can see how I can make it work.
>i keep wondering... is that really wise...
>i keep thinking that it needs to have some plumbing put in
>_before_ you get that close to completion, or (i can see this
>happening) it might wind up being a kludgy hack...
>
>will think on it all some more...
>
>
>[Java1.2]
>>I just tested sieve.ex against my port of sieve.ex for
>>Java 1.2 and the results were:
>>9486 sieves per second for sieve.java
>>3840.5 sieves per second for sieve.ex
>
>{and from bench.doc from EU2}
> Language Benchmark Result
> -------- --------- ------
> Java (JDK 1.0.2) sieve Euphoria is 8x faster
> Perl (PC version) fibonnacci Euphoria is 65x faster
> PC-LISP v3.0 queens Euphoria is 28x faster
> Small C Interpreter sieve Euphoria is 545x faster
> We have yet to find an interpreter that even comes close to Euphoria in
>speed.
>
>hrmmmmm... ummm ut oh :/
>apparently, the only? explanation? is that 1.0.2 got
>*seriously* upgraded when it went to 1.2.0???
>from 8 times _slower_ to 3 times _faster_??????
>whew...
>
>but, I'm still not gonna "switch" to Java for my
>'normal' coding :) I'm a diehard EUian now...
>however, i think we need to poke, prod and nudge
>rob a wee bit ;)
>
>
>--Hawke'
>
>
3. Re: ADV.Games & Java
>now, 3D would be almost out of the question for multiuser,
>it's been tried and failed (when referring to RPG's... real
>RPG's... closest i've seen is battlespire, and it sucked)
>because of the huge amounts of data that is added on top
>of the 3D engine...
You're forgetting the brillinat piece of work: Half-life..
Its not a 100% rpg, however its a perfect mixture of a number of elements,
like RGP, 3d-shoot-'em'-up and the old retro feeling you get when a game
*really* challances you..
And the AI is sopisticated (? spelling ?) enough to be compared to RGP
proccesing..
It at least proves it can be done. Just not by us 
>if battlespire (and perhaps a few others i can think of)
>for example, had done this, instead of SW rendering, they
>could have actually done something... it had a decent
>basis for a nicely fine detailed RPG, but the renderer
>and the socket work (it kept losing synch and crashing)
>needed severe help...
Would you believe if I would say software rendering with Unreal & Half-life
(unlike battlespite, games of the moment) is faster (although no
anti-aliasing) than hardware rendering using my Ati 3D Rage Pro which really
isnt slow at all with the Direct3D drivers (the opengl is much *slower*).
Then again, this might be due to AGP. I get a steady 45 fps. With all the AI
coded in realtime interpreted script (quakescript/unrealscipt).. dont say it
cant be done without hw support. It surely can, esspecially since hw support
needs more memory. (I really dont know why..)
>apparently, the only? explanation? is that 1.0.2 got
>*seriously* upgraded when it went to 1.2.0???
>from 8 times _slower_ to 3 times _faster_??????
>whew...
JIT compiles it. And since java looks a lot like C++ it can be compiled to
pretty fast code. And the larger the number of executes, etc. the more
chance a compiled program will beat an interpretered program. Even with
Java's weird garbage collector.
Ralf
4. Re: ADV.Games & Java
Ralf wrote:
>You're forgetting the brillinat piece of work: Half-life..
isn't that isometric viewed as well? not true first/third person 3d???
>and the old retro feeling you get when a game
>*really* challances you..
yeahhhh.... hard to come by these days with companies like
Bugsthesda, and Siesta at Sierra...
>It at least proves it can be done. Just not by us
hey!
:P
>(unlike battlespite, games of the moment)
LOL, i like it, battlespi(t)e :)
>Would you believe if I would say software rendering
>with Unreal & Half-life is faster
>Then again, this might be due to AGP.
which... once again... is having the _hardware_ take the
chore of rendering... using AGP is in principle, no different
than using a 3dfx card... (A)dvanced (G)raphics (P)ort
is just that, advanced... it has (in most implementations)
built-in 3d-rendering in hardware...
>I get a steady 45 fps.
not surprising, considering that you can (in theory) pump
data from {wherever} directly to the monitor nearly twice
as fast as non-AGP methods...
sometimes as much as 4x faster data thruput...
>dont say it cant be done without hw support.
:)
ok, it cannot be done, efficiently, (pretty much at all), without
*some type* of hw assistance...
wanna see unreal _crawl_???
get a s3 virge card, and use the software renderer.
then, you are assuredly using _no_ hw support...
(since unreal doesn't have support for the s3 3d functions builtin,
you will default to using directX 5/6 software/hal emulation)
flip it on 640x480 and press the turn button once, go get a cup
of coffee, and come back in time to watch your character begin
rotating...
>JIT compiles it.
ah, yes... i fergot that JIT comes packaged in 1.2 now...
so that is NOT a fair benchmark...
we need to rerun the sieve benchmark for java again,
flipping OFF the cmdline option to compile with JIT...
anyone???
and, ralf, would u think then, (as i would) that it would
be a fair test thusly?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Martin wrote:
> No, I'm sorry I did not mean actual 3D as in something that would
> require a 3DFX card.
oh i know... _i_ was suggesting that we make it that way...
i understand you meant isometric... :)
> But it can also make the player visible or in visible, like you went
> behind an object. So essentially the angle depends on how the map
> is drawn.
now that is intriguing... gives me idears :)
*scurries away to ponder a bit*
--Hawke'
5. Re: ADV.Games & Java
>Ralf wrote:
>>You're forgetting the brillinat piece of work: Half-life..
>isn't that isometric viewed as well? not true first/third person 3d???
Hell no. It even got light flares, etc.
>>Would you believe if I would say software rendering
>>with Unreal & Half-life is faster
>>Then again, this might be due to AGP.
>which... once again... is having the _hardware_ take the
>chore of rendering... using AGP is in principle, no different
>than using a 3dfx card... (A)dvanced (G)raphics (P)ort
>is just that, advanced... it has (in most implementations)
>built-in 3d-rendering in hardware...
Bla bla bla.. no hardware support trust me.
The AGP is just a special port, which is really really fast. Where they push
the graphical data down really fast. It does have built-in 3d-rendering yes,
available trough the Direct3D api, not through the standard directx-blit
that is used if software modes. You can choose which API to use: Half-life
software rendering, OpenGL, Direct3D (hal), Mini-openGL (for 3dfx) ..
Hawke, really an AGP is something totally different than a 3dfx card. 3dFx
renders and manages some of the special buffers, etc. in its own quick
memory. And if its a combi card like my Ati. It can put the final
blit-to-screen in its own video memory just a little faster than you can. If
you have a 3dfx card, it would still need another *real* video card to
output the graphical data. AGP is just a way too output such graphical data
really fast. No buil-in 3D tricks. I'm not going to debate this any furhter,
go lookup some doc.
>>dont say it cant be done without hw support.
>:)
>ok, it cannot be done, efficiently, (pretty much at all), without
>*some type* of hw assistance...
>wanna see unreal _crawl_???
>get a s3 virge card, and use the software renderer.
>then, you are assuredly using _no_ hw support...
If I get a cheap AGP card, and put it in instead of my Ati, it would go
*just* as fast.
P2-Mmx-Agp is just really really fast.
>(since unreal doesn't have support for the s3 3d functions builtin,
>you will default to using directX 5/6 software/hal emulation)
Actually it does have support to them through the latest direct3d patch
(still pretty buggy), because like my Ati card, it offers its 3D services
through the direct3d api. Not through the AGP *port*!
>flip it on 640x480 and press the turn button once, go get a cup
>of coffee, and come back in time to watch your character begin
>rotating...
Bad choice 640x480. Why dont you try 5?? * 3??, I dont know the precize
resolution, I do know its almost as fast as 320x200, I guess it doesnt
require any banks, or something like that, however it is an acceptable
resolution. BTW 640x480 is playable as well, though a bit laggy with the
outside areas. Really, get a cheap AGP card, and go see Unreal run like
hell. Or better yet, Get half-life and also experience a movie-like feeling.
(half-life is faster, though not suprisingly (it uses the Quirk2 Engine)
consists of many small maps, rather than many huge ones like Unreal
>and, ralf, would u think then, (as i would) that it would
>be a fair test thusly?
Yes, JIT vs Euphoria, would be a fair test. However we should also compare
Euphoria initialization time, and Java's, I guess. Since its actually
compiling! Maybe an direction for Euphoria to head ?
Ralf
