1. VEL
Jon Banquer writes:
> I agree and think RDS should have made some sort of
> comment by now. To say nothing at all is wrong.
Here's what I know about the Dumer situation:
His Web site crashed, causing him to lose a bunch of files,
and become rather upset (naturally).
Shortly thereafter, some mildy negative remarks were made
about VEL on this mailing list. He took those remarks
as a very serious indication that people would never
accept VEL. He was very upset about it and asked
(demanded) that we remove all of his files from the
RDS site, and remove his entry on the "Other Sites" page.
I tried to reason with him. The list server remarks appeared
to me to be very mild. He disagreed. I held off reporting the
situation to this list in the hope that he would calm down
and reconsider the situation. I felt that an announcement
on my part might make it harder for him to return.
You may remember that Dumer quit VEL a few months ago,
and RDS managed to get him to return. We had no luck this
time.
Everett writes:
> If I have in my possession a library that has legal issues
> associated with it, and RDS has done nothing to inform me
> of that problem while carefully protecting itself.
> Well, let's just say that I might be a little piqued.
You'll have to read whatever copyright restrictions are
contained in VEL itself. RDS maintains a collection of
over 500 .ZIP files at our Web site.
We graciously accept these files from a wide variety of
people, and we provide them to you free.
We can't be held responsible for
explaining the various legal restrictions that are involved
in using each of those files. Contact the author of the file
if you have concerns.
Jon Banquer writes:
> What greatly disturbs me is that RDS seems to have no
> interest in building an IDE for Euphoria. I can't think of a
> better way to enhance Euphoria's use than RDS handling
> the base IDE.
Several people have said that RDS should build an IDE.
We are prepared to step in and fill that role if it
becomes necessary, but for now we are very happy with
the work that experts such as David Cuny have been doing
in that area. RDS can't do it all. For now we are concentrating
on the core, and encouraging others to add pieces to it.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
2. Re: VEL
> Several people have said that RDS should build an IDE.
> We are prepared to step in and fill that role if it
> becomes necessary...
My opinion is that this is absolutely necessary. It's
more than David can or should be expected to handle.
Perhaps joint development with David or others would
work ?? Obviously David and RDS work well together.
RDS needs to put a substantial effort into the IDE.
To have the perfect "core", without a very high level of
functionality in the IDE, is in my opinion, a very
unbalanced approach and keeps me using Visual
Basic. Will an excellent IDE or a more powerful
core attract more users to Euphoria ??
Thanks for clarifying the Dumer situation. It's
unfortunate but maybe it's sends a clear message
that RDS MUST be in control of it's IDE. If others
desire to add to it....let them. If others want to
build their own IDE ...that's fine too. David,
Bernie, Gary have all put in tremendous effort.
RDS would do better leading a coordinated
effort rather than hoping for an individual(s)
to come along with a silver bullet.
My belief is that Euphoria users would rather build
applications rather than an IDE. I don't believe
users want to be dependant on a part time, unpaid,
individual, when they are investing so much
of their time into becoming proficient with
Euphoria.
If I'm wrong on these views I will go away....
quietly :)
Thank you for clarifying the Dumer situation. I
agree with your views that the comments on
this list serve were mild and I'll add fair from
ALL sides.
Speaking personally, SSRI's have done wonders
for me. Ops...maybe more than the list serve needs
to know :)
Thanks for your comments Robert.
jon
3. Re: VEL
Robert Craig wrote:
>Here's what I know about the Dumer situation:
For what it is worth to you, you may add my thanks to Mr. Banquer's
for your reply on this. You must admit that it looked rather odd.
snip
>Everett writes:
>> If I have in my possession a library that has legal issues
>> associated with it, and RDS has done nothing to inform me
>> of that problem while carefully protecting itself.
>> Well, let's just say that I might be a little piqued.
>
>You'll have to read whatever copyright restrictions are
>contained in VEL itself. RDS maintains a collection of
>over 500 .ZIP files at our Web site.
>We graciously accept these files from a wide variety of
>people, and we provide them to you free.
>We can't be held responsible for
>explaining the various legal restrictions that are involved
>in using each of those files. Contact the author of the file
>if you have concerns.
I meant copyright restrictions that the product itself might
be violating. If you were aware of such, I would think that it
would be your duty to inform the rest of us. Since there
apparently are none, or none that you know of....the issue
abates.
As far as an IDE for Euphoria, Mr. Banquer seems to have the
right of it here. It is a monstrous project, and many times, an
IDE tends to represent in the minds of users, the language itself.
Many who use the IDE may have no separate ability to use the
language. It would be really nice if an IDE worked the same across
as many environments as Euphoria runs in. I hope that Mr.
Cuny does not at any time in the near future find reasons to
abandon his IDE.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
4. Re: VEL
Jon Banquer wrote:
> My opinion is that [RDS writing an IDE]
> absolutely necessary.
Exactly what API will RDS be writing to? Win32, X11, or some
platform-independant library? That means RDS has to develop a cross-platform
API as well, which is certainly not trivial.
> Perhaps joint development with David or
> others would work?
At the moment, I'm so pressed for time that I'm currently farming out work
on my own IDE.
> Obviously David and RDS work well together.
I should point out that - other than upgrades to Euphoria given to myself
and other 'supporters' - my relationship with RDS is pretty much the same as
everyone else's.
> Thanks for clarifying the Dumer situation. It's
> unfortunate but maybe it's sends a clear message
> that RDS MUST be in control of it's IDE.
While the remarks made about VEL were by themselves relatively mild, they
came after continuing griping against the use of Delphi, the selection of
name "Damien", lack of source code and and other nit-picking. All this when
Damien was being released in beta as a favor.
Gary did a huge amount of work for the Euphoria community, and his reward
was to get slammed for his effort. He had no moral obligation to release the
source code for Damien. That his leaving is touted as 'proof' that the
criticism was right leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, to say the least.
> RDS would do better leading a coordinated
> effort rather than hoping for an individual(s)
> to come along with a silver bullet.
On the other hand, you could end up with a camel. Coordinating such a
project would not be a simple thing.
-- David Cuny
5. Re: VEL
Robert Craig wrote:
> Here's what I know about the Dumer situation:
>
> His Web site crashed, causing him to lose a bunch of files,
> and become rather upset (naturally).
> Shortly thereafter, some mildy negative remarks were made
> about VEL on this mailing list. He took those remarks
> as a very serious indication that people would never
> accept VEL. He was very upset about it and asked
> (demanded) that we remove all of his files from the
> RDS site, and remove his entry on the "Other Sites" page.
> I tried to reason with him. The list server remarks appeared
> to me to be very mild. He disagreed. I held off reporting the
> situation to this list in the hope that he would calm down
> and reconsider the situation. I felt that an announcement
> on my part might make it harder for him to return.
>
> You may remember that Dumer quit VEL a few months ago,
> and RDS managed to get him to return. We had no luck this
> time.
>
*sigh* I've been following this situation for a while, and yes, some
comments on VEL were quite harsh, especially all the 'touchiness' over
using a piece of Delphi (correct me if i'm wrong) to help write VEL.
Sometimes, one has to go to other places to help write something for
Euphoria. And using straight Euphoria to make VEL can have its own
caveats to it too... altho I am not aware of any. (dependance on the
W32lib would be one)
<snip>
>
> Jon Banquer writes:
> > What greatly disturbs me is that RDS seems to have no
> > interest in building an IDE for Euphoria. I can't think of a
> > better way to enhance Euphoria's use than RDS handling
> > the base IDE.
>
> Several people have said that RDS should build an IDE.
> We are prepared to step in and fill that role if it
> becomes necessary, but for now we are very happy with
> the work that experts such as David Cuny have been doing
> in that area. RDS can't do it all. For now we are concentrating
> on the core, and encouraging others to add pieces to it.
>
<nod> It would be cool to see RDS coordinate an effort for Euphoria,
especially to use pieces of Eu that are hidden, that may improve speed
in itself.
But to 'depend' on the experts (David, Gary) would be a little harsh on
them, as life loves to do what it wants :)
I myself are looking to further myself into Euphoria, altho thanks to
school, many of my 'projects' are on hold till summer :(
And my thanks too to the information on the Dumer situation, helps with
the ease of wondering what everyone was freakin' out about :)
--"LEVIATHAN"
6. Re: VEL
> Exactly what API will RDS be writing to? Win32, X11, or
>some platform-independant library? That means RDS has to
>develop a cross-platform API as well, which is certainly
>not trivial.
Borland has committed to releasing BCB for Linux as well
as Delphi.
> At the moment, I'm so pressed for time that I'm currently
>farming out work on my own IDE.
All the more reason that RDS should move quickly.
> Gary did a huge amount of work for the Euphoria
>community, and his reward was to get slammed for his effort.
Nonsense. People have the right to voice criticism. As Robert
has pointed out, it was rather mild. It's a fact that is how
the world works. Your concept of everyone having to walk on
thin ice, because someone has an ultra fragile personality,
is unrealistic. If I remember right, Dr. Seuss teaches us this
in the Cat In The Hat. I mean, even when the Cat In The Hat
was insulted for his creativity, he did what he had to do
when no one appreciated his "work". He even dealt with
that annoying fish. He did not just storm out of the house.
> On the other hand, you could end up with a camel.
After reading Mr. Wall's comments, I would never use Perl :)
jon
7. Re: VEL
Everett Williams wrote:
> As far as an IDE for Euphoria, Mr. Banquer seems to have the
> right of it here. It is a monstrous project, and many times, an
> IDE tends to represent in the minds of users, the language itself.
Here's my solution: The first multi-author, open source Euphoria
project.
Greg
8. Re: VEL
On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Rob wrote:
> You'll have to read whatever copyright restrictions are
> contained in VEL itself. ....
There was a little concern on my part, at least, due to this
paragraph from my Delphi installation:
"You may NOT redeploy INPRISE-supplied design-time-only
packages. You may not recompile or redistribute any
INPRISE-supplied components or libraries for use by other
developers. "
Now, it may be that Borland would consider some of the components
in VEL, especially those that are not standard parts of Windows, as
falling into the above category. At this point, they could probably care less,
but if this became a widely-used package, they might have second thoughts.
I am not a lawyer (which has always been a source of great pride to my family),
but the following seems to also be problematical:
"(vii)
regardless of any modifications which you make and
regardless of how you might compile, link, or package your
programs, the libraries (including runtime libraries),
code, Redistributables, and/or other files of the Software
(including any portions thereof) may not be used in
programs created by your end users (i.e., users of your
programs) and may not be further redistributed by your end
users;"
Regards,
Irv
9. Re: VEL
Robert,
I was upset to hear nothing from or about Gary Dumer. But now I understand
the situation completely. I'm sure you at RDS have done your utmost to get
Gary back, as you did earlier.
It really is a pity to see Gary behave so weird. He is a genius, but you
know what they say about geniuses!
Thank for your efforts,
Ad
10. Re: VEL
Hi David,
Maybe it is because English isn't my native language, but I haven't seen any
really bad comments on VEL. It seems to me that Gary must have been
disappointed about the lack of comments and questions on VEL and Damien,
rather than the few nit-picking comment about lack of source and the use of
Delphi.
And what is wrong with the name "Damien"?
Ad
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
Aan: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Verzonden: vrijdag 10 december 1999 19:18
Onderwerp: Re: VEL
> snip <
> While the remarks made about VEL were by themselves relatively mild, they
> came after continuing griping against the use of Delphi, the selection of
> name "Damien", lack of source code and and other nit-picking. All this
when
> Damien was being released in beta as a favor.
>
> Gary did a huge amount of work for the Euphoria community, and his reward
> was to get slammed for his effort. He had no moral obligation to release
the
> source code for Damien. That his leaving is touted as 'proof' that the
> criticism was right leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, to say the least.
> -- David Cuny
11. Re: VEL
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Dec 11, 1999
-
Last edited Dec 12, 1999
Irv Mullins wrote:
>"(vii)
>regardless of any modifications which you make and
>regardless of how you might compile, link, or package your
>programs, the libraries (including runtime libraries),
>code, Redistributables, and/or other files of the Software
>(including any portions thereof) may not be used in
>programs created by your end users (i.e., users of your
>programs) and may not be further redistributed by your end
>users;"
>
>Regards,
>Irv
From what I can tell, Gary is about as fastidious an individual as
I could hope to come in contact with. If the VEL dll is compiled code
and does not represent Delphi libraries as it well may not, then
Inprise would have no further interest. If runtime libraries are linked in
the dll, that might be another kettle of fish. I have seen so many
distributions based on Delphi with the ability to generate other
programs, that I don't doubt that it can be accomplished. Without
the source or run time libraries to compare it to, I haven't a clue. I
am not a Delphi developer, so I probably won't have access to such
any time soon. Any reasonably competent individual on this list who
also has access to the Delphi runtime libs and tools should be able to
discern this for us.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
12. Re: VEL
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Dec 11, 1999
-
Last edited Dec 12, 1999
Ad Rienks wrote:
>I was upset to hear nothing from or about Gary Dumer. But now I understand
>the situation completely. I'm sure you at RDS have done your utmost to get
>Gary back, as you did earlier.
Here, we agree.
>It really is a pity to see Gary behave so weird. He is a genius, but you
>know what they say about geniuses!
>
>Thank for your efforts,
>
>Ad
I had thought that the man was your friend since you have at times acted
as a surrogate VEL expert...but it must be the translation factor. You have
all the couth of a back country hick in a New York City bar. We all know
what "they" say about geniuses. What should we say about you? I hope
that I never have to seek reassurance from you when I am feeling low. A
sip or two of wood alcohol would be preferable...and that, if you didn't know
is purely poisonous. Desist!
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
13. Re: VEL
On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:44:18 -0500, Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM> wrote:
>Ad Rienks wrote:
>
>>I was upset to hear nothing from or about Gary Dumer. But now I understand
>>the situation completely. I'm sure you at RDS have done your utmost to get
>>Gary back, as you did earlier.
>
>Here, we agree.
>
>>It really is a pity to see Gary behave so weird. He is a genius, but you
>>know what they say about geniuses!
>>
>>Thank for your efforts,
>>
>>Ad
>
>I had thought that the man was your friend since you have at times acted
>as a surrogate VEL expert...but it must be the translation factor. You have
>all the couth of a back country hick in a New York City bar. We all know
>what "they" say about geniuses. What should we say about you? I hope
>that I never have to seek reassurance from you when I am feeling low. A
>sip or two of wood alcohol would be preferable...and that, if you didn't
know
>is purely poisonous. Desist!
>
>Everett L.(Rett) Williams
>rett at gvtc.com
Sheesh, Everett, talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
Now if Ad chooses to depart the list, we'll know who to blame.
-- Pete
P.S. If Everett takes offense to this, and chooses to depart, _I'll_ have
the blame (...or would it be glory?) (...not that that's likely to happen
anyway)
14. Re: VEL
Ad Rienks wrote:
><snip>
>>It really is a pity to see Gary behave so weird. He is a genius, but you
>>know what they say about geniuses!
and Everett Williams responded:
><snip>
> You have
>all the couth of a back country hick in a New York City bar. We all know
>what "they" say about geniuses. What should we say about you?
<snip>
>Desist!
Uh, maybe Ad's comment was a "back-handed compliment"? ;)
Dan Moyer
(foolishly sticking his oar in)
15. Re: VEL
On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, EW wrote:
> I had thought that the man was your friend since you have at times acted
> as a surrogate VEL expert...but it must be the translation factor. You have
> all the couth of a back country hick in a New York City bar.
As we back country hicks would say "T'aint yer fight" -
translated, this means let the geniuses fend for themselves, they
don't need any outside help.
Irv
16. Re: VEL
----- Original Message -----
From: Irv Mullins <irv at ELLIJAY.COM>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: VEL
> On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, EW wrote:
>
> > I had thought that the man was your friend since you have at times acted
> > as a surrogate VEL expert...but it must be the translation factor. You
have
> > all the couth of a back country hick in a New York City bar.
>
> As we back country hicks would say "T'aint yer fight" -
> translated, this means let the geniuses fend for themselves, they
> don't need any outside help.
That's about how it's done here in real life, too, as long as they think you
are stupid, they will help in any way they can. Don't believe me?, check out
programs to help those disabled,, there is *always* more money to help those
with severe brain damage than all other areas combined. Smart people won't
hire smart people, or defend them, after all, smart people are job security
threats,,, they make others look stupid. They often have few, if any, real
friends. And they can feel that. No one is a genius at everything.
Kat,
feeling bad for Gary.
17. Re: VEL
On Sun, 12 Dec 1999, Kat wrote:
> That's about how it's done here in real life, too, as long as they think you
> are stupid, they will help in any way they can. Don't believe me?, check out
> programs to help those disabled,, there is *always* more money to help those
> with severe brain damage than all other areas combined. Smart people won't
> hire smart people, or defend them, after all, smart people are job security
> threats,,, they make others look stupid. They often have few, if any, real
> friends. And they can feel that. No one is a genius at everything.
>
> Kat,
> feeling bad for Gary.
I feel sorry for Gary, too. He's got a lot of talent.
If he's going to put that talent to use in the real world, he may as well
get used to the idea that he is going to get _real_ criticism from all sides.
The criticism that he has gotten on this list pales in comparison with the
flack he will get from a boss who insists on doing things _his_ way, wrong or
not,. primarily because can fire anyone who disagrees.
Then there are the co-workers. They can't fire him, but they can certainly set
him up for a fall because, as Kat says, they consider him a threat to their job
security.
But that's the way the world works.
Irv
18. Re: VEL
Kat wrote:
> That's about how it's done here in real life, too, as long as they think you
> are stupid, they will help in any way they can. Don't believe me?, check out
> programs to help those disabled,, there is *always* more money to help those
> with severe brain damage than all other areas combined. ....
But Kat, that's only right. After all, physically disabled persons can, with
training, become productive, self-sufficient computer programmers.
Those with severe brain damage are unsuited for this type of work and must
accept jobs like IT Director, MIS manager, etc.
Irv
19. Re: VEL
- Posted by Everett Williams <rett at GVTC.COM>
Dec 12, 1999
-
Last edited Dec 13, 1999
On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:42:37 -0500, Irv Mullins <irv at ELLIJAY.COM> wrote:
>Kat wrote:
>
>> That's about how it's done here in real life, too, as long as they think you
>> are stupid, they will help in any way they can. Don't believe me?, check out
>> programs to help those disabled,, there is *always* more money to help those
>> with severe brain damage than all other areas combined. ....
>
>But Kat, that's only right. After all, physically disabled persons can, with
>training, become productive, self-sufficient computer programmers.
>Those with severe brain damage are unsuited for this type of work and must
>accept jobs like IT Director, MIS manager, etc.
>
>Irv
Irv,
You are a rapscallion and a ne'er do well and funnier than you have any
right to be. Please, since I apparently started this one, let this be the final
word on it. I meant every word that I wrote to Ad, but I meant it to be posted
privately...and it should have been as evidenced by this string of posts.
My apologies to the rest of the list, and my most fervent wish that Gary
finds his way past his personal demons and back to this list. I do not
think that any person on this list is responsible for his disappearance.
There are certainly those that could be more thoughtful with their
criticism in his direction, but as several have noted, criticism is part of
life on any list that pretends to do what this one does.
Everett L.(Rett) Williams
rett at gvtc.com
20. Re: VEL
Robert Craig Wrote:
>Here's what I know about the Dumer situation:
>
>His Web site crashed, causing him to lose a bunch of files,
>and become rather upset (naturally).
>Shortly thereafter, some mildy negative remarks were made
>about VEL on this mailing list. He took those remarks
>as a very serious indication that people would never
>accept VEL. He was very upset about it and asked
>(demanded) that we remove all of his files from the
>RDS site, and remove his entry on the "Other Sites" page.
>I tried to reason with him. The list server remarks appeared
>to me to be very mild. He disagreed. I held off reporting the
>situation to this list in the hope that he would calm down
>and reconsider the situation. I felt that an announcement
>on my part might make it harder for him to return.
Arg! I was convinced he was merely taking another vacation.
Lewis Townsend
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
21. Re: VEL
</delurk>
> > Kat,
> > feeling bad for Gary.
>
> I feel sorry for Gary, too. He's got a lot of talent.
> If he's going to put that talent to use in the real world, he may as well
> get used to the idea that he is going to get _real_ criticism from all
> sides.
>
> The criticism that he has gotten on this list pales in comparison with the
> flack he will get from a boss who insists on doing things _his_ way, wrong
> or
> not,. primarily because can fire anyone who disagrees.
> Then there are the co-workers. They can't fire him, but they can certainly
> set
> him up for a fall because, as Kat says, they consider him a threat to their
> job
> security.
>
> But that's the way the world works.
>
> Irv
And a merry christmas to all of you too
Sid
<relurking/>
--
Sid Sidebottom - Senior Operations Technician
VLSI Vision Ltd
A company of the STMicroelectronics Group
Tel: +44 (0)131 336 6116
Fax: +44 (0)131 336 6001
Email: sid at vvl.co.uk
WWW: http://www.vvl.co.uk
22. Re: VEL
From: Sid Sidebottom - Snr Ops Technician <Sid.Sidebottom at ST.COM>
Subject: Re: VEL
> </delurk>
>
> > > Kat,
> > > feeling bad for Gary.
> > But that's the way the world works.
> >
> > Irv
>
> And a merry christmas to all of you too
>
> Sid
>
> <relurking/>
No Virginia,
there is no sanity clause in your boss' contract.
Irv
23. Re: VEL
Irv wrote:
>
> No Virginia,
> there is no sanity clause in your boss' contract.
>
> Irv
Everyone knows there's no sanity clause
--
Sid Sidebottom - Senior Operations Technician
VLSI Vision Ltd
A company of the STMicroelectronics Group
Tel: +44 (0)131 336 6116
Fax: +44 (0)131 336 6001
Email: sid at vvl.co.uk
WWW: http://www.vvl.co.uk
24. Re: VEL
----- Original Message -----
From: Sid Sidebottom - Snr Ops Technician <Sid.Sidebottom at ST.COM>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: VEL
> Irv wrote:
>
> >
> > No Virginia,
> > there is no sanity clause in your boss' contract.
> >
> > Irv
>
> Everyone knows there's no sanity clause
Whoa,, next you be saying there is no Ether(net) Bunny!
Kat,
mew.
