1. [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) Nov 12, 2014
- 2299 views
Forked from Re: Euphoria isn't dying - just needs a jolly good kick!
Anyone else notice that Microsoft just announced that Visual Studio is now open source and cross-platform?
.NET Framework will be open-source. Visual Studio will be freeware for small teams (5 or fewer users), including commercial use. I haven't seen anything about VS being open source though. Either way, I think this is pretty good news since the Express versions of VS have been pretty well crippled since day one. The ability to use VS add-ins with "free" version is a big plus, and the Professional version has always had more bells-and-whistles anyway.
-Greg
2. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by jaygade Nov 12, 2014
- 2249 views
Hah, I thought that Derek was being sarcastic in the other thread.
Interesting news...
Well, if it means that I can run Paint.NET on my Mac now, that would be a bonus.
3. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 13, 2014
- 2261 views
Forked from Re: Euphoria isn't dying - just needs a jolly good kick!
Anyone else notice that Microsoft just announced that Visual Studio is now open source and cross-platform?
.NET Framework will be open-source. Visual Studio will be freeware for small teams (5 or fewer users), including commercial use. I haven't seen anything about VS being open source though. Either way, I think this is pretty good news since the Express versions of VS have been pretty well crippled since day one. The ability to use VS add-ins with "free" version is a big plus, and the Professional version has always had more bells-and-whistles anyway.
-Greg
These are bad news for the PC market and for Euphoria. Microsoft's brutally wishes to dominate the software AND the hardware market of PCs, by giving attractive products for free - and forcing the world to be bound to their operating system.
There is no reason to be happy about it. Linux technology is much more advanced and flexible then Windows. Microsoft blinds us all with their multi-billion budget. Visual studio is a bait for the blinded crowd, to force everyone into Microsoft. These are terrible news for the future of PC technology. But many companies already figured it out.
Euphoria - should introduce its own IDE, as Java. And gain popularity. If not - Euphoria will be vanished and all of us will be using Microsoft's cloud and visual tools which they supply. In political terms this method called - dictatorship.
Are you all fools?
4. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by system_X Nov 13, 2014
- 2231 views
Euphoria - should introduce its own IDE, as Java. And gain popularity. If not - Euphoria will be vanished and all of us will be using Microsoft's cloud and visual tools which they supply. In political terms this method called - dictatorship.
Are you all fools?
Thankfully not all of us are, but either way MS won't be able to dominate. The Linux kernel is planted quite nicely in server and embedded markets.
5. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) Nov 13, 2014
- 2166 views
Euphoria - should introduce its own IDE, as Java. And gain popularity. If not - Euphoria will be vanished and all of us will be using Microsoft's cloud and visual tools which they supply. In political terms this method called - dictatorship.
I don't know about that. I think a lot of people enjoy the simplicity of Euphoria. We don't need an IDE to be operational.
A well-tailored IDE would be very nice to have, but I don't think that should be the primary appeal of Euphoria. "Come for the language, stay for the IDE" perhaps.
Are you all fools?
Not likely. More like a loosely-organized gang of slightly-deranged fanatics.
-Greg
6. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by jaygade Nov 13, 2014
- 2195 views
Euphoria - should introduce its own IDE, as Java. And gain popularity. If not - Euphoria will be vanished and all of us will be using Microsoft's cloud and visual tools which they supply. In political terms this method called - dictatorship.
Are you all fools?
What Java IDE? Netbeans? Eclipse?
As a person who well remembers Microsoft's attempts at market dominance in the 90s and early 2000s, I'm not worried about this. This is not a ploy to dominate the market or attempt lock-in.
7. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 14, 2014
- 2153 views
What Java IDE? Netbeans? Eclipse?
As a person who well remembers Microsoft's attempts at market dominance in the 90s and early 2000s, I'm not worried about this. This is not a ploy to dominate the market or attempt lock-in.
Eclipse has more potential to talk to young programmers then ED.
Microsoft's strategy is complex.
The sleepy market will see what Microsoft is up to in the future.
8. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 14, 2014
- 2149 views
I don't know about that. I think a lot of people enjoy the simplicity of Euphoria. We don't need an IDE to be operational.
For Euphoria to be operational we need a console and a keyboard. And personally I love it. But for Euphoria to be popular we need to be realistic. We live in 2014, not the 90s. The young people will not understand the simplicity and beauty of a console and a keyboard. That's sad - but it's true.
A well-tailored IDE would be very nice to have, but I don't think that should be the primary appeal of Euphoria. "Come for the language, stay for the IDE" perhaps.
IDE is crucial for popularity. that's all. nothing else. Popularity will open many other doors.
Are you all fools?
Not likely. More like a loosely-organized gang of slightly-deranged fanatics.
-Greg
equal("fools", "fanatics")
result is always TRUE. I know this is deranged.
9. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by jaygade Nov 14, 2014
- 2121 views
What Java IDE? Netbeans? Eclipse?
As a person who well remembers Microsoft's attempts at market dominance in the 90s and early 2000s, I'm not worried about this. This is not a ploy to dominate the market or attempt lock-in.
Eclipse has more potential to talk to young programmers then ED.
Microsoft's strategy is complex.
The sleepy market will see what Microsoft is up to in the future.
Right, but Eclipse is separate from Java and is not bundled with it.
10. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 14, 2014
- 2109 views
Right, but Eclipse is separate from Java and is not bundled with it.
Java is already in the spotlights. It had its own marketing strategy and its own luck.
Euphoria is not Basic or C or Java. Basic and C already had their impressive Microsoft's IDEs in the 90s. Pascal and Assembly as well.
Euphoria was focused on the quality of the language itself, rather then marketing.
Now it's time to put Euphoria in the spotlights by making it popular as Basic, C, and Java. It is possible. Euphoria has the qualities. One line of Euphoria Code is like 50 lines of Basic code or 100 lines of C code.
But you must reach the young people. The old users don't like big risks, and they are usually engaged to their duties. While the young people really like risks and they are full of anxiety. That's why QBASIC is still alive today, and that's why Java exists - young people want to learn it and use it.
But QBASIC is still an impressive IDE for DOS, and Java offers opportunities.
Euphoria cannot wait forever. You will not be able to offer the language to young people without an IDE these days, and without the young people you will never gain popularity, and without popularity you will not get opportunities.
One more thing: if someone can configure Eclipse to be a good IDE for Euphoria... that can be a dream come true.
11. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 15, 2014
- 2075 views
I wish to summarize from a different perspective, what I've said about the future of Euphoria;
1. Personally I wish to help promoting Euphoria by configuring Eclipse IDE for the next generation of programmers; or by helping to write an Euphoria IDE in Euphoria language itself - which has an advantage.
But for the last 15 years I live in an unstable war zone, and it's hard to focus on big projects while the walls of the house are shaking from artillery, rockets and guerrilla attacks.
So don't get me wrong, it's not because I'm lazy... it's because of the fragile life style in this area.
That's why I wish that someone can help promoting Euphoria, and targeting Euphoria to younger and inexperienced programmers, for its popularity.
2. The global politics and economy is on the edge of the worst crises in the history. Even those who don't know it - feel it.
It causes depression and lack of motivation in many areas, including programming of course.
OpenEuphoria is not unique from this point of view; many hi tech companies are on the edge of unknown future; many workers are losing their jobs; and the bank systems are existing only upon speculations - their debts are already a political, as well as military, problem.
US economy lost its followers, which means that the political and military situation is going to get explosive globally.
It may sound absurd, but it might be the last chance for Euphoria programming language to get some glory - which in my opinion it surely deserves.
12. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by BRyan Nov 15, 2014
- 2084 views
shian lee:
I don't understand why you keep saying that euphoria needs a IDE ?
Doing a quick search of the archive returns a number of IDEs
In addition there are also some euphoria editors that can edit and then run a program
There is also a DOS editor called ee.ex that looks and acts the same as a quick basic editor
http://rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&keywords=ide
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&eywords=ezdesign
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&keywords=design
13. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 15, 2014
- 2054 views
shian lee:
I don't understand why you keep saying that euphoria needs a IDE ?
Doing a quick search of the archive returns a number of IDEs
In addition there are also some euphoria editors that can edit and then run a program
There is also a DOS editor called ee.ex that looks and acts the same as a quick basic editor
There is another DOS IDE named QE Editor, in the archive, if you're interested.
Euphoria needs a working, reliable, maintainable and friendly IDE for Windows and Linux, that can easily be installed and used by inexperienced users, with a simple download link on the home page or the download page, with no special patches, i.e.
Download->Easy-Install->Run->Enjoy! with good help system and tools which simplifies the experience of a new user, without the need of using .cfg files, and setting the path, etc.
Is it clear now? I've already explained before why popularity is important for the future of Euphoria.
14. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by SDPringle Nov 15, 2014
- 2030 views
Shian,
I am inclined to agree with you. An IDE that works like netbeans or Visual Studio would do wonders for newbie programmers. However, the problem is economics. The other developers did not want to include a GUI toolkit with Euphoria's installer. Personally, I would love to include several portable GUI libraries, maybe Java's Swing and QT and KDE. If we distribute a graphical IDE, we will have to distribute the GUI library it needs. The other devs didn't want the later, by the contrapositive they will not want the former.
I would love to see an IDE that can intelligently auto-complete and not only on a fixed list of routines but also the routines you have written as well. Also auto-predict what is in scope and not what is out of scope would be useful. These require something that is custom to Euphoria. Nobody has asked me to write a GUI.
There are major hurdles to overcome, try to use the GUI toolkits wrappers out there. I confess I haven't looked at them in years. They might be quite good now.
S. D. Pringle
15. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 16, 2014
- 2006 views
Shian,
I am inclined to agree with you. An IDE that works like netbeans or Visual Studio would do wonders for newbie programmers. However, the problem is economics. The other developers did not want to include a GUI toolkit with Euphoria's installer. Personally, I would love to include several portable GUI libraries, maybe Java's Swing and QT and KDE. If we distribute a graphical IDE, we will have to distribute the GUI library it needs. The other devs didn't want the later, by the contrapositive they will not want the former.
I would love to see an IDE that can intelligently auto-complete and not only on a fixed list of routines but also the routines you have written as well. Also auto-predict what is in scope and not what is out of scope would be useful. These require something that is custom to Euphoria. Nobody has asked me to write a GUI.
There are major hurdles to overcome, try to use the GUI toolkits wrappers out there. I confess I haven't looked at them in years. They might be quite good now.
S. D. Pringle
Thank you,
This is the answer that I was expecting to.
Nobody asked you to write a GUI since the newbies almost never heard about Euphoria. It is the truth and it is the problem that I'm addressing here.
I used Irv's EuGTK a bit - it worked like a magic. In few minutes I could create great GUI for Linux without bugs, and it was exciting. But it's only for Linux and GTK 3.
The lack of standard GUI libraries in Euphoria 4 - is preventing from rapid and stable development of a cross-platform GUI IDE.
The lack of time and the economic issue is preventing Euphoria from moving out of the shadow and enter the spotlights.
In any case I will always enjoy Euphoria, since I prefer console applications; and Irv's EuGTK is a beautiful artwork that's easy to use on Linux, and I hope that this project will continue. Kenneth Rhodes did a great work as well with EuGeany - for supporting Geany IDE. And there are other projects in different stage of usability.
But those who complain that "Euphoria is dying" - must understand that it's basically because Euphoria don't have the budget for developing GUI libraries; which has high demand among the young generation of programmers.
At least I wished that more developers would understand the importance of this issue, and consider it more seriously - maybe an opportunity will appear some day, and it's better not to miss it.
Whatever: Euphoria should not die. The developers already did an amazing work until now, and we should all be patient and continue to enjoy it, while the developers are continuing to develop it despite the bad economics.
p.s. I was developing a console application, using graphics mode 18 in FreeDOS, for designing metal parts and operating machine for cutting Iron (similar to laser machine for cutting iron). It was unbelievable how EASY it was! In few months the user could easily and quickly design metal parts and operate the machine with huge flexibility. These machines cost millions! and we could develop a useful machine for few thousands! Unfortunately, I quit that job, since me and the boss had bad communication, and the boss could not find someone else to maintain the software.
I just want to say: look how powerful Euphoria is right now!
Thank you.
16. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by ryanj Nov 16, 2014
- 1989 views
Shian,
I am inclined to agree with you. An IDE that works like netbeans or Visual Studio would do wonders for newbie programmers. However, the problem is economics. The other developers did not want to include a GUI toolkit with Euphoria's installer. Personally, I would love to include several portable GUI libraries, maybe Java's Swing and QT and KDE. If we distribute a graphical IDE, we will have to distribute the GUI library it needs. The other devs didn't want the later, by the contrapositive they will not want the former.
I would love to see an IDE that can intelligently auto-complete and not only on a fixed list of routines but also the routines you have written as well. Also auto-predict what is in scope and not what is out of scope would be useful. These require something that is custom to Euphoria. Nobody has asked me to write a GUI.
There are major hurdles to overcome, try to use the GUI toolkits wrappers out there. I confess I haven't looked at them in years. They might be quite good now.
S. D. Pringle
A few of you may have tried FluidAE when I released it back in March. I have made much progress in the last 6 months on it. I have renamed it Redy. (See the Wiki page). Redy has a GUI written in 100% Euphoria code. That means all widget classes, and everything you see and interact with inside a window is drawn and managed by pure euphoria source code! Maybe that sounds kinda wild, like I'm reinventing the wheel. But, it has the advantage of not being forced to rely on C and C++ libraries to do everything, and it is completely customizable, since we have complete access to it's Euphoria source code.
I hope will be a very useful development environment for Euphoria. Although I haven't released it yet, I have been using it at work for several things, and it has proven to be very stable and efficient. It starts up quickly and runs smoothly on my ~8 year old office computer with a crappy video card and Windows Vista. I have fixed every graphics and performance bug (that I know of). It can run a program for several weeks continuously without any problems at all. The only reason I haven't released it yet is because it's lacking a few features as well as documentation and demo programs. I might be able to finish the first release by the end of the year.
Redy will include an IDE called RedyCode (See Wiki page). It will make use of Redy's "canvas" widget class to provide some powerful features such as syntax highlighting and context-sensitive help. It will probably not have many features in the first release, but it will provide an platform on which to build a powerful open-source IDE written in and for Euphoria.
17. Re: [OT] Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform
- Posted by Shian_Lee Nov 16, 2014
- 1954 views
A few of you may have tried FluidAE... Redy has a GUI written in 100% Euphoria code...
Honestly I don't really get it. It sounds too good to be true.
If Redy can help to pull out Euphoria from its anonymity, then it's not just a precious GUI library and tools - it should be used wisely to market Euphoria.
...Let's wait and see the first release.
Thank you.
