1. The Future of Euphoria

Hello All,

I was checking download versions of Euphoria. I noticed that the latest current stable build was 4.0.5, it was released 2012. That was 5 years ago. I'm just wondering if Euphoria 4.1.0 or whatever version is coming next will see the light of day? At this point, it seems as if Phix will become the true successor to Euphoria. I'm not trying to dis Euphoria or anything, but when it hasn't been updated in this long, I mean you gotta suspect something else will come along. I know this topic has also been brought up before in various ways, but it does get a little alarming when something hasn't been updated in so long.

Will we see a new release of Euphoria this year?

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2. Re: The Future of Euphoria

Icy_Viking said...

Hello All,

Will we see a new release of Euphoria this year?

Sadly, no.

Icy_Viking said...

At this point, it seems as if Phix will become the true successor to Euphoria.

It already is. All that's left is to change the name of the forum and the download links, but see http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/130900.wc

Icy_Viking said...

I was checking download versions of Euphoria. I noticed that the latest current stable build was 4.0.5, it was released 2012. That was 5 years ago. I'm just wondering if Euphoria 4.1.0 or whatever version is coming next will see the light of day? I'm not trying to dis Euphoria or anything, but when it hasn't been updated in this long, I mean you gotta suspect something else will come along.

I think it already has - Phix.

Icy_Viking said...

I know this topic has also been brought up before in various ways, but it does get a little alarming when something hasn't been updated in so long.

The problem is that there's no one left from the release team. Shawn has been gone for months, Ira/Jerome even longer. Matt does check in to lurk, but rarely participates so there's not much hope there. The only other person is Jeremy (who has been gone for years).

See http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/129657.wc

So, unless an existing dev decides to branch into new (and now newly-made unexplored) territory and figure out how the release process works, or we get a new member willing to look into this, it's simply not possible to get a new release.

Everyone agrees it should be done and that we're ready, but there's no one left to do it.

My request to form a new strike team to look at this turned up zero takers: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/129478.wc

It'd be nice to have at least a final release, of the latest code of what's been committed to git, but this isn't going to happen for the same reasons as why there have been no regular releases. The last code change occured over half a year ago, see http://scm.openeuphoria.org/hg/euphoria/ and http://scm.openeuphoria.org/hg/euphoria/rev/979ef64e0941

I will officially (and unilaterally) announce the retirement of the current OE codebase and the adoption of Phix this Saturday.

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3. Re: The Future of Euphoria

It says there is a reply to this post, but I don't see it.

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4. Re: The Future of Euphoria

Look in posts awaiting moderation (last but one link on the right on this page)

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5. Re: The Future of Euphoria

Icy_Viking said...

... I'm just wondering if Euphoria 4.1.0 or whatever version is coming next will see the light of day? ...

Will we see a new release of Euphoria this year?

I must take part of the blame here as I stopped working on the product a few years ago. The reasons don't matter. However, maybe I could try to get my head around the code again and find some time to tinker. With luck, that might be just enough to have a minor release pushed out.

As for Phix, I simply do not know enough about it to comment on its future or affect on the future of Euphoria.

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6. Re: The Future of Euphoria

I should mention that Phix does not run on ARM chips, and to make it do so would probably be be at least three years worth of effort...

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7. Re: The Future of Euphoria

petelomax said...

I should mention that Phix does not run on ARM chips, and to make it do so would probably be be at least three years worth of effort...

yep I took a quick look a few times and it looked like there would be an awful lot of work involved although euphoria on arm (raspberry pi is the only arm i've tried since 2011) isn't perfect either, fails a few tests, so might be worth at least seeing exactly what would need to be done.

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8. Re: The Future of Euphoria

rkdavis said...

might be worth at least seeing exactly what would need to be done.

OK, this is a quick summary of the very first step I needed to get things going on the linux port:

You can actually and very easily try this out yourself (on either windows or linux) to get a feel for things.

Change constant suppressopRetf in p.exw to 1

compile this using "p p -nodiag -norun test.exw" (and you can put that suppressopRetf back to 0 now):

--format PE32 
--format PE64 
format ELF32 
--format ELF64 
constant hw = "hello world\n" 
    #ilASM{ 
        [PE32] 
            xor ebx,ebx 
            push -11                        -- nStdHandle (p1) 
            call "kernel32","GetStdHandle" 
            mov edx,[hw] 
            mov ecx,[ebx+edx*4-12]          -- length 
            shl edx,2 
            push ebx                        -- lpOverlapped (NULL) 
            push esp                        -- lpNumberOfBytesWritten 
            push ecx                        -- nNumberOfBytesToWrite 
            push edx                        -- lpBuffer 
            push eax                        -- hFile, 
            call "kernel32","WriteFile" 
            push eax 
            call "kernel32","ExitProcess" 
        [ELF32] 
            mov ecx,[hw] 
            mov eax,4               -- sys_write(ebx=int fd,ecx=char *buf,edx=int len) 
            mov edx,[ebx+ecx*4-12]  -- length (p3) 
            shl ecx,2               -- raw(hw) (p2) 
            mov ebx,1               -- stdout (p1) 
            int 0x80 
            mov ebx,eax             -- exitcode (p1) 
            mov eax,1               -- sys_exit(ebx=int error_code) 
            int 0x80 
--          xor ebx,ebx             -- (common requirement) 
        [PE64] 
            sub rsp,8*7                     -- 5 params and space for target of r9, plus align 
            mov rcx,-11                     -- DWORD nStdHandle (p1) 
            call "kernel32","GetStdHandle" 
            mov rdx,[hw] 
            mov qword[rsp+4*8],0            -- LPOVERLAPPED lpOverlapped (p5) 
            shl rdx,2                       -- LPCVOID lpBuffer (p2) 
            lea r9,[rsp+5*8]                -- LPDWORD lpNumberOfBytesWritten (p4) 
            mov r8,[rdx-24]                 -- DWORD nNumberOfBytesToWrite (p3) 
            mov rcx,rax                     -- HANDLE hFile (p1) 
            call "kernel32","WriteFile" 
            add rsp,8*7 
            mov rcx,rax                     -- UINT uExitCode (p1) 
            call "kernel32","ExitProcess" 
        [ELF64] 
            mov rsi,[hw] 
            mov rdx,[rbx+rsi*4-24]  -- length(hw) 
            shl rsi,2               -- raw(hw) 
            mov rdi,1               -- stdout 
            mov rax,1               -- sys_write(rdi=unsigned int fd,rsi=const char *buf,rdx=size_t count) 
            syscall 
            mov rdi,rax             -- error_code 
            mov rax,60              -- sys_exit(rdi=int error_code) 
            syscall 
          } 

Then run filedump.exw on the resulting binary. Hopefully, using ELF binaries on arm will mean that much of the scaffolding will already be in place and only need minor tweaks. The important tab is Code, which should match [one block of] the source above (and nothing else), and of course the executable should actually run (on a suitable system).

I had the luxury of having FASM to build something very similar, I doubt there is anything quite like that for arm [??]. The other thing that can be done is find any small executables that work on the Pi and see what filedump.exw makes of them. And certainly no harm in looking at a clib/libc/glib or whatever it is called (since writing the above, I have come to the realisation it is much better to call that than use syscalls).

While it will certainly not happen overnight, it should be a realistic and achievable goal to get an extra ten lines on the above, beginning with [ARM], that actually builds (on win/lnx) and runs (on Pi).

No doubt that is a hard path to take, and no doubt some wag will say "it should be written in C" - but no points for guessing what I will point at that is written in C smile

Pete

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9. Re: The Future of Euphoria

petelomax said...

I should mention that Phix does not run on ARM chips, and to make it do so would probably be be at least three years worth of effort...

But considering that the last stable release of OpenEuphoria was from 5 years ago, and that we have never even managed to get to the release candidate stage for the ARM platform, ...

It seems like we're still better off betting on ARM support in Phix in the next 3-5 years, than waiting another 5+ years for an OpenEuphoria release on any platform (let alone for ARM).

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10. Re: The Future of Euphoria

So how many people are developing Phix? Does it run on winxp? Debian? msdos? Which puters? Raspi? UX4? Is anyone going to port the archive files and apps to Phix? Does Phix have tasks like OE4 does? Does it have goto? Custom user types and runtime type checking? Is there no Phix.org/.com? Will this be a place for the four people who swap over to Phix because it's talked about on OpenEuphoria.org?

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11. Re: The Future of Euphoria

katsmeow said...

So how many people are developing Phix? Does it run on winxp? Debian? msdos? Which puters? Raspi? UX4? Is anyone going to port the archive files and apps to Phix? Does Phix have tasks like OE4 does? Does it have goto? Custom user types and runtime type checking? Is there no Phix.org/.com? Will this be a place for the four people who swap over to Phix because it's talked about on OpenEuphoria.org?

1,yes,yes,no,no,no,you,yes,as #ilASM jmp,yes and yes,no,yes.

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12. Re: The Future of Euphoria

Well, common fate that i finally get a pi3 with OE on it, and OE is declared dead the same week.

I typoed UX4 (an olde vac tube), it's actually XU4 (http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G143452239825).

EDIT: url change

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13. Re: The Future of Euphoria

Will RobC over at RDS keep hosting the Eu/OE archives for Phix? This would be an opportunity for him to back out of the scene and close it all down, as he isn't making money off it to support the website, and he didn't sign up for Phix.

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14. Re: The Future of Euphoria

petelomax said...

I had the luxury of having FASM to build something very similar, I doubt there is anything quite like that for arm [??].

Actually, there is, and it is called FASMARM - which had a new release last May (yes, 2016) - perfect!

Anyone chomping at the bit should grab a copy of that and see whether they can get some examples running.

Pete

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15. Re: The Future of Euphoria

katsmeow said...

Will RobC over at RDS keep hosting the Eu/OE archives for Phix? This would be an opportunity for him to back out of the scene and close it all down, as he isn't making money off it to support the website, and he didn't sign up for Phix.

I'm pretty sure the answer is NO. That's what I would do.

(Actually, April Fool joke or not, I think that's likely to happen soon. Even if maintaining the archives is only a little bit of work and a small amount of money, Rob derives no benefit from keeping it.)

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16. Re: The Future of Euphoria

petelomax said...
katsmeow said...

So how many people are developing Phix? Does it run on winxp? Debian? msdos? Which puters? Raspi? UX4? Is anyone going to port the archive files and apps to Phix? Does Phix have tasks like OE4 does? Does it have goto? Custom user types and runtime type checking? Is there no Phix.org/.com? Will this be a place for the four people who swap over to Phix because it's talked about on OpenEuphoria.org?

1,yes,yes,no,no,no,you,yes,as #ilASM jmp,yes and yes,no,yes.

We've seen Eu go from several developers to none in a few years.

How quickly do you think Phix will go from one to zero?

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17. Re: The Future of Euphoria

irv said...
petelomax said...
katsmeow said...

So how many people are developing Phix? Does it run on winxp? Debian? msdos? Which puters? Raspi? UX4? Is anyone going to port the archive files and apps to Phix? Does Phix have tasks like OE4 does? Does it have goto? Custom user types and runtime type checking? Is there no Phix.org/.com? Will this be a place for the four people who swap over to Phix because it's talked about on OpenEuphoria.org?

1,yes,yes,no,no,no,you,yes,as #ilASM jmp,yes and yes,no,yes.

We've seen Eu go from several developers to none in a few years.

How quickly do you think Phix will go from one to zero?

Hi Irv

number years = floor(several / few)

or

The same number of years that eugtk will continue to be developed by one highly enthusiastic individual.

No idea then!

Cheers

Chris

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18. Re: The Future of Euphoria

If at all possible, I think the RDS archives should be backed up on the openeuphoria.org site. Many of the RDS file listings are dead links to defunct web pages. I suppose this could be done automatically. Can OpenEuphoria.Org afford to accomodate the RDS archives?

Ken Rhodes

irv said...
katsmeow said...

Will RobC over at RDS keep hosting the Eu/OE archives for Phix? This would be an opportunity for him to back out of the scene and close it all down, as he isn't making money off it to support the website, and he didn't sign up for Phix.

I'm pretty sure the answer is NO. That's what I would do.

(Actually, April Fool joke or not, I think that's likely to happen soon. Even if maintaining the archives is only a little bit of work and a small amount of money, Rob derives no benefit from keeping it.)

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19. Re: The Future of Euphoria

Senator said...

If at all possible, I think the RDS archives should be backed up on the openeuphoria.org site. Many of the RDS file listings are dead links to defunct web pages. I suppose this could be done automatically. Can OpenEuphoria.Org afford to accomodate the RDS archives?

Ken Rhodes

Those dead links do nothing positive for Euphoria's image, and they also indicate that Rob and Junko don't have the time (or perhaps the interest) to clean them out.

Before we ask permission to back them up here, perhaps we should find someone here who has the time and the interest?

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20. Re: The Future of Euphoria

irv said...
Senator said...

If at all possible, I think the RDS archives should be backed up on the openeuphoria.org site. Many of the RDS file listings are dead links to defunct web pages. I suppose this could be done automatically. Can OpenEuphoria.Org afford to accomodate the RDS archives?

Ken Rhodes

Those dead links do nothing positive for Euphoria's image, and they also indicate that Rob and Junko don't have the time (or perhaps the interest) to clean them out.

Before we ask permission to back them up here, perhaps we should find someone here who has the time and the interest?

I waited to see if anyone else would reply first, but...

I would be interested, and quite possibly prepared to host a few (thousand) files, but would need some help.

I know there is http://rapideuphoria.com/unzip.txt, but afaik that only covers rds-hosted zips, and has no descriptions, etc. Is there anything better? Is this a web scraping thing (of which I have very limited experience)? Is there by any chance a wget-generating script, ideally one that can produce a report of dead links?

Pete

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21. Re: The Future of Euphoria

petelomax said...

I would be interested, and quite possibly prepared to host a few (thousand) files, but would need some help.

This is just an FYI.

The last time i backed up my version of the RDS archives was November 2010, at which point it occupied (still does, actually) 1.8 GB of hdd space.

Total number of uncompressed files is 24,232, in 2,690 folders, occupying 982 MB of hdd space.

To save search time, i parsed and made indexes of everything that might be a "word" (function names, var names, etc etc, authors names, and their comments). The index files occupy 955 MB of hdd space and total file count is 190,303 in 2,392 folders.

Naturally, you can pile all the little files into one big file. I deleted all the code i had written for searching, compiling the results, and formatting the display results in various colors. I demo'd it worked July 2008 in #euphoria.

Someone edited this post without my permission.

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22. Re: The Future of Euphoria

irv said...

Those dead links do nothing positive for Euphoria's image, and they also indicate that Rob and Junko don't have the time (or perhaps the interest) to clean them out.

Before we ask permission to back them up here, perhaps we should find someone here who has the time and the interest?

First someone should ask Rob. The last time, the answer was a firm NO:

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126500.wc

petelomax said...

I know there is http://rapideuphoria.com/unzip.txt, but afaik that only covers rds-hosted zips, and has no descriptions, etc. Is there anything better? Is this a web scraping thing (of which I have very limited experience)? Is there by any chance a wget-generating script, ideally one that can produce a report of dead links?

Back in 2008, after a spate of attacks on the website, I set up a wget script to download the entire archive. It worked and I still have it somewhere. Using wget for this purpose is trivial.

As for reporting dead links, I've not tried it, but it can be done with wget:

https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-find-broken-links-on-your-website-using-wget-on-debian-7

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23. Re: The Future of Euphoria

jimcbrown said...
irv said...

Before we ask permission to back them up here, perhaps we should find someone here who has the time and the interest?

First someone should ask Rob. The last time, the answer was a firm NO:

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126500.wc

First of all, /forum/m/126500.wc is a different topic, and the only part of that post slightly relavant to now is when i said:

katsmeow said...

I suggested user archives on openeuphoria.org for libs and apps donated, which run on OE and not RDS's versions. This was roundly shot down as politically slapping Robert Craig in the face. I still support it,

And then jimcbrown reported his memory, not a quote from RobC saying "NO":

jimcbrown said...

Well, it was Rob who shot it down. Jeremy was the first one who proposed this IIRC, back in 2008 or so, with the new forum, only to be told no. (The exchange was between a member of RDS and Jeremy, iirc. The rest of the dev team wasn't involved.)

For RDS to accept source code that doesn't run on RDS's Euphoria, and then not allowing it to be posted elsewhere, would be like posting PHP there and RDS suing for it then being posted on a PHP site. Would RDS have an archive of code, written by other people, labeled "Code Which Does Not, And Never Will, Run On Euphoria", and copyright those? I think it would be like IBM copyrighting all computer code written since 1971 as being derivative of the 4004 cpu.

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24. Re: The Future of Euphoria

jimcbrown said...

As for reporting dead links, I've not tried it, but it can be done with wget:

https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-find-broken-links-on-your-website-using-wget-on-debian-7

It's easier on windoze, using wget and console cmd findstr

wget -r -nv -ologfile.txt http://google.com/qwkutyeiobeywfjsbu.html 
Will output lines such as
http://google.com/qwkutyeiobeywfjsbu.html: 
2017-04-09 13:27:25 ERROR 404: Not Found. 
Open the logfile in a text editor, search-replace the '/n' before the date, save file, then use
findstr "ERROR 404:" "e:\wget-11\logfile.txt" > e:\wget-11\l 
ogfile2.txt 
and you will have the missing pages in logfile2. If you do NOT use wget option "spider" you will have a copy of the page that's on the server, which may be different than what's in your local copy. So search the website as wget downloaded it for the bad link. Fix the pages wget downloaded, they will be .html pages(?), then search the top dir for ".html" names, sort by time, those after the date of logfile2 will be the ones you fixed and can re-up to the server.

I am sure i have said the creole on this site is borked.

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25. Re: The Future of Euphoria

jimcbrown said...

As for reporting dead links, I've not tried it, but it can be done with wget:

https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-find-broken-links-on-your-website-using-wget-on-debian-7

katsmeow said...

It's easier on windoze, using wget and console cmd findstr

wget -r -nv -ologfile.txt http://google.com/qwkutyeiobeywfjsbu.html 

With a minor tweak (replacing findstr with grep -F), those commands will run on a nix system, so I'd call it equally easy.

katsmeow said...

findstr "ERROR 404:" "e:\wget-11\logfile.txt" > e:\wget-11\logfile2.txt 

And on nix, this does the same:

grep -F "ERROR 404:" logfile.txt > logfile2.txt 

katsmeow said...

http://google.com/qwkutyeiobeywfjsbu.html: 
2017-04-09 13:27:25 ERROR 404: Not Found. 
Open the logfile in a text editor, search-replace the '/n' before the date, save file, then use

On nix (or even Windoze with the right toolkit), this step is even easier. Just do something like this (untested):

cat logfile.txt | tr '\n' '@' | sed 's/:@20/: 20/g' | tr '@' '\n' > logfile1.txt 

katsmeow said...

If you do NOT use wget option "spider" you will have a copy of the page that's on the server,

Agreed.

katsmeow said...

which may be different than what's in your local copy.

Assuming that one possesses another local copy in the first place. I'm just speculating here, but I suspect that in most cases Pete wouldn't have one.

katsmeow said...

those after the date of logfile2 will be the ones you fixed and can re-up to the server.

This is probably fine for an offline backup copy (IANAL but IIRC U.S. copyright law - or maybe case law surrounding copyright law - explicitly allows for making backup copies without permission), but if hosting publicly, one might also want to ask the original hostmaster for explicit permission.

katsmeow said...

I am sure i have said the creole on this site is borked.

Agreed (that you have said so in the past).

Not that you're the only one. Some dicussion about fixing this was made in the past but the end result was just to better document the behavior: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/120094.wc

irv said...

Before we ask permission to back them up here, perhaps we should find someone here who has the time and the interest?

jimcbrown said...

First someone should ask Rob. The last time, the answer was a firm NO:

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126500.wc

katsmeow said...

First of all, /forum/m/126500.wc is a different topic, and the only part of that post slightly relavant to now is

Agreed. That was the part that I was referring to. Apologies for any confusion.

katsmeow said...

I suggested user archives on openeuphoria.org for libs and apps donated, which run on OE and not RDS's versions. This was roundly shot down as politically slapping Robert Craig in the face. I still support it,

And then jimcbrown reported his memory, not a quote from RobC saying "NO":

Agreed, it was a paraphrase, but I stand by it - the answer was a firm no - even if RDS didn't use those exact words.

jimcbrown said...

Well, it was Rob who shot it down. Jeremy was the first one who proposed this IIRC, back in 2008 or so, with the new forum, only to be told no. (The exchange was between a member of RDS and Jeremy, iirc. The rest of the dev team wasn't involved.)

At this late date, I don't remember specifically if it was Rob, or another member of RDS, or maybe even a group decision from all of RDS's members. (All two of them.) But RDS told Jeremy no, clearly and firmly.

katsmeow said...

For RDS to accept source code that doesn't run on RDS's Euphoria,

I think that's OK because OpenEuphoria is a derived work of RDS Euphoria, and IIUC RDS technically still holds copyright over it.

katsmeow said...

and then not allowing it to be posted elsewhere,

This is a bit of a tricky question. Jeremy's interpretation was that the original authors who submitted to the RDS Archives generally intended for the code to be shared freely and therefore would have no problems moving it.

More importantly, since RDS owns the openeuphoria.org domain and technically the OpenEuphoria group is under the RDS umbrella (rather than being a wholly separate and independent entity), in a sense any openeuphoria.org-based Archives would still be run by RDS. Thus we believe that fewer copyright and distrubution issues come up if openeuphoria.org could directly host the Archives (than if a completely independent person or group tried to do so).

That said, if an independent person wanted to do this, I think I can speak for the entire OpenEuphoria Group in saying that we'd have no objections. But it's still RDS that would need to be contacted for permission.

katsmeow said...

I think it would be like IBM copyrighting all computer code written since 1971 as being derivative of the 4004 cpu.

Agreed. I don't think RDS holds copyright to most of the Archive, however - that probably remains with the original authors, who have simply given permission to RDS (and maybe ONLY RDS) to distribute their submissions.

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26. Re: The Future of Euphoria

jimcbrown said...

More importantly, since RDS owns the openeuphoria.org domain

I did not know that, i thought Derek still had operational control of it. I recall registering it myself, and then handing him the password and showing him how to transfer it to himself. I expected the .org, composed of a few OE devs, would run it. I didn't expect the .org would fall to the .com and be bound by a commercial liability. What control then does RDS have on Phix?

posted by useless

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27. Re: The Future of Euphoria

jimcbrown said...

More importantly, since RDS owns the openeuphoria.org domain

katsmeow said...

I did not know that, i thought Derek still had operational control of it.

Nope, it's Rob. Everytime we need to change anything in DNS, we need to ask Rob to do it for us.

katsmeow said...

I didn't expect the .org would

be bound by a commercial liability.

We're not AFAIK, in the sense that we don't owe RDS any money. IIRC RDS pays for the domain name out of its own pocket at a loss.

katsmeow said...

What control then does RDS have on Phix?

None. At the most, he might step in and say we can't promote or host Phix on this forum or any other part of this website - but at this point it's unlikely he'd even comment on such a move, let alone get involved in any way.

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28. Re: The Future of Euphoria

katsmeow said...

I am sure i have said the creole on this site is borked.

It's not, but maybe your understanding of it might need a refresher.

A double dash starts a strike-thru section. To avoid this, prefix the first dash with a tilde character. Like this ...

If you do NOT use wget option "~--spider" 

Results in ...

If you do NOT use wget option "--spider" 

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29. Re: The Future of Euphoria

katsmeow said...
jimcbrown said...

More importantly, since RDS owns the openeuphoria.org domain

I did not know that, i thought Derek still had operational control of it. I recall registering it myself, and then handing him the password and showing him how to transfer it to himself. I expected the .org, composed of a few OE devs, would run it. I didn't expect the .org would fall to the .com and be bound by a commercial liability. What control then does RDS have on Phix?

I run the openeuphoria.com domain, and it simply redirects to openeuphoria.org.

I also control a sub-domain on my personal site that is designed for OpenEuphoria usage. I think Tom is using it to store image files for the documentation wiki. This sub-domain has more than ample capacity to store the RDS archive on it.

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