1. Frustrated again!
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 18, 2015
- 2401 views
Hi
I've just come across the same old problem in euphoria again, and once again I've become side tracked from what I was trying to do.
I updated a while ago from 4.05 to 4.1, and didn't check out every single thing that worked under 4.05, so when I came to do something in 4.1, I found that it was broken, and I've got sidetracked delving into includes, and following the broken trace. Much as I enjoy doing this, I can imagine how this can become very frustrating to newcomers to the language. I do most of my programming on the command line on Linux, hence the delay in discovering the issue on Windows.
(What I am doing is related to EuWinGUI, and found that I couldn't open a project, traced it to ggv() getglobalvariables in euwingui.ew, and linked to the shim that allowed the reading of cpp dlls - I know)
My point (wish) is this - Eu should be a modern language, with an integrated IDE, and an integrated tool kit bundled with the download and installation, and even a gui designer, and while I hate to say this, the emphasis should be on windows. Most people using Linux will have some computing savvy, and will relish the challenge of getting stuff working. Its all very well having multiple toolkits available, but it fragments the language, and whenever there's an update, there's a risk of breaking something which may not be noticed for a while if we are all off using our own preferred toolkit.
Yes, we should have the option to use the toolkit of our choice, but the default should be included with the installation, so that an update updates the entire installation, without putting an extra workload on the newcomer, which could be nothing but off putting.
WxEuphoria, and GTK are undoubtedly the best looking, but sorry, they aren't the easiest to use. Redy is the most promising in terms of programming, but has a 'dated' feel (don't be offput Ryan, this is a great piece of work, I'm putting myself in the shoes of the casual programming browser). WEE should be the default editor, bundled with the install program. And we should be just able to plonk some widgets on a window, link up a few lines of code, and have ourselves a working program ( I realise this is more than likely some way off). Euphoria is such a beautiful language, to not put our efforts in this direction is surely missing an opportunity to catch many new users.
Perhaps the devs are looking at this the wrong way - perhaps Euphoria should be bundled with WEE, rather than the other way round - so you update WEE, and you update the Euphoria files too, rather than having to do it separately. Eu could still run independently, for the more experienced programmers (own editor, command line on Linux, whichever toolkit they wanted and so on), but there would be little extra work required to get a functional programming environment.
Anyway, just some late night, mildly frustrated musings. Off to bed now.
Chris
2. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 18, 2015
- 2578 views
Hi
I've just come across the same old problem in euphoria again, and once again I've become side tracked from what I was trying to do.
Hate it when this happens. Though as I explain below, I don't think this is a 4.0.5 -> 4.1 issue.
I updated a while ago from 4.05 to 4.1, and didn't check out every single thing that worked under 4.05, so when I came to do something in 4.1, I found that it was broken, and I've got sidetracked delving into includes, and following the broken trace. Much as I enjoy doing this, I can imagine how this can become very frustrating to newcomers to the language. I do most of my programming on the command line on Linux, hence the delay in discovering the issue on Windows.
Can't blame you. I'm the same way.
(What I am doing is related to EuWinGUI, and found that I couldn't open a project, traced it to ggv() getglobalvariables in euwingui.ew, and linked to the shim that allowed the reading of cpp dlls - I know)
Right, the issue here is that EuWinGUI was closed source, tied to a specific version of Euphoria (2.x or 3.x), and written in a different language.
Your major points below are not invalidated, I am just pointing out that in a fully "modern" language, one with an integrated IDE/toolkit/GUI designer/et al, you are still going to have crazy language and runtime incompatibility issues. For example, look at https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/1d452e8d-aa4e-4572-b03f-3d69d5f61cda/action?threadDisplayName=vstudio&forum=msbuild (And in case you're wondering, I know of a case where the suggested fix, changing the Platform Toolset form v90 to v100, broke with a new error - http://www.postseek.com/meta/e7b5621757e9076696b2a20f814ef103 - and the suggested fix for that error is to change it back from v100 to v90 !)
As an aside, what about tinEWG? IIUC it's an open source, 100% Euphoria version of EuWinGUI - and has its own version of EuWinGUI's designer. http://openeuphoria.org/forum/121901.wc#121901 http://www.RapidEuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?win=on&keywords=tinewg
One could even combine tinewg with EuLinGUI (see http://openeuphoria.org/forum/122539.wc#122539 ) and get a cross platform version!
My point (wish) is this - Eu should be a modern language, with an integrated IDE, and an integrated tool kit bundled with the download and installation, and even a gui designer, and while I hate to say this, the emphasis should be on windows. Most people using Linux will have some computing savvy, and will relish the challenge of getting stuff working. Its all very well having multiple toolkits available, but it fragments the language, and whenever there's an update, there's a risk of breaking something which may not be noticed for a while if we are all off using our own preferred toolkit.
I don't see why the choice is so binary between Linux/GNU and Windoze. What about OS X users, for example?
Yes, we should have the option to use the toolkit of our choice, but the default should be included with the installation, so that an update updates the entire installation, without putting an extra workload on the newcomer, which could be nothing but off putting.
I have no objections to this. It's just hard to make a decision.
WxEuphoria, and GTK are undoubtedly the best looking, but sorry, they aren't the easiest to use. Redy is the most promising in terms of programming, but has a 'dated' feel (don't be offput Ryan, this is a great piece of work, I'm putting myself in the shoes of the casual programming browser). WEE should be the default editor, bundled with the install program. And we should be just able to plonk some widgets on a window, link up a few lines of code, and have ourselves a working program ( I realise this is more than likely some way off). Euphoria is such a beautiful language, to not put our efforts in this direction is surely missing an opportunity to catch many new users.
What toolkit would you have bundled then? The closed source, out of date, non-cross-platform, and unmaintained EuWinGUI?
I'm not saying you are wrong about this point - but which toolkit/framework would do the job here?
As an aside, as I pointed out before - http://openeuphoria.org/forum/122539.wc#122539 - EuGTK is actually more complete and featureful than EuWinGUI.
Perhaps the devs are looking at this the wrong way - perhaps Euphoria should be bundled with WEE, rather than the other way round - so you update WEE, and you update the Euphoria files too, rather than having to do it separately. Eu could still run independently, for the more experienced programmers (own editor, command line on Linux, whichever toolkit they wanted and so on), but there would be little extra work required to get a functional programming environment.
There was talk of bundling WEE and EuGTK with new releases of OpenEuphoria - see http://openeuphoria.org/forum/127676.wc#127676
This is not a bad idea though - WEE already has an auto-updater, something that OpenEuphoria currently lacks.
Anyway, just some late night, mildly frustrated musings. Off to bed now.
Chris
Thanks for sharing. Have a nice night.
3. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2379 views
Hi
I've just come across the same old problem in euphoria again, and once again I've become side tracked from what I was trying to do.
I updated a while ago from 4.05 to 4.1, and didn't check out every single thing that worked under 4.05, so when I came to do something in 4.1, I found that it was broken, and I've got sidetracked delving into includes, and following the broken trace.
Yup, thats about where I am too. GCC won't compile even though its a new GCC install after the Euphoria v4.10 upgrade; worse is win32lib v7.020 giving registry error which wants my windoze 8.1 64bit to choose one of shut down or restart. I'll pursue the GCC issues later, but getting a working win32lib is more serious. Does anyone have a working version as per the the patching suggested by Jean-Marc Duro 3 months ago, see "Win32lib working on Seven 64 bits" .
As a side note, if wxEuphoria is Eu v4.10 compatible and being maintained, I suppose I should go that route instead?
While portability of my Eu app is cool, getting it to work at all is more important ;)
Regards,
Alan
4. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 19, 2015
- 2336 views
Hi
Yeah, I know EuWinGUI is closed source, and while I only gave TinEWG a cursory look last night, it looks promising. The reason I liked EuWinGUI is because of the designer, and its simplicity. I have used the other toolkits, and they just require too much work on my part to get anything half decent looking.
Which one would I bundle with Eu. Hmm - I'm not the person to answer that, but I would vote for the one that was easiest to use, and which came with a GUI designer.
I gave up on Win32lib a while ago, because of the IDE designer issues, even though it was one of the greatest assets that Eu had, albeit a few years ago.
Oh, and I have nothing against OSX, but perhaps for the future of the language, effort should be put into creating a Windows bundle, that shows off the language to the majority of users, while at the same time touting it's cross platform capabilities.
Cheers Chris
5. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2299 views
Can you give me a link to another programming language and IDE that will actually allow me to, as you say, plonk some widgets on a window, and write a few lines of code?
I have written an accounts receivable program using EuGTK and Glade. It was easy, and required not very many lines of code. Works fine.
To complete the job I need to write accounts payable and general ledger programs to go along with it. As you know, this stuff can get pretty complex. So I'm anxious to try anything easier. What do you suggest?
6. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2307 views
Yup, thats about where I am too. GCC won't compile even though its a new GCC install after the Euphoria v4.10 upgrade; worse is win32lib v7.020 giving registry error which wants my windoze 8.1 64bit to choose one of shut down or restart. Alan
I'm curious - I've compiled 4.1 beta 2 on several computers recently, no problems. All these run Linux. Is this no-compile just an issue with Windows?
7. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 19, 2015
- 2303 views
Yup, thats about where I am too. GCC won't compile even though its a new GCC install after the Euphoria v4.10 upgrade; worse is win32lib v7.020 giving registry error which wants my windoze 8.1 64bit to choose one of shut down or restart. Alan
I'm curious - I've compiled 4.1 beta 2 on several computers recently, no problems. All these run Linux. Is this no-compile just an issue with Windows?
Maybe. OTOH there was a build issue sometime back. See http://scm.openeuphoria.org/hg/euphoria/rev/de9aee683d0f
8. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 19, 2015
- 2296 views
Can you give me a link to another programming language and IDE that will actually allow me to, as you say, plonk some widgets on a window, and write a few lines of code?
I have written an accounts receivable program using EuGTK and Glade. It was easy, and required not very many lines of code. Works fine.
To complete the job I need to write accounts payable and general ledger programs to go along with it. As you know, this stuff can get pretty complex. So I'm anxious to try anything easier. What do you suggest?
Hi Irv
For plonkability, Delphi, RapidQ (RQBasic), FireFly for FreeBasic, MS VisualBasic (google them for links, some are current, some not so). And, yes I suspect it is quite easy for you, who created EuGTK, and worked out how to integrate Glade. And yes, you won't get any argument from me that Eu is a far more simple language to program in than Delphi, or Basic, and each of those have their foibles.
My point is that Eu needs a visual designer, that doesn't fragment the language with different toolkits (but allows the option of using them where appropriate), and that is simple for a newcomer to pick up, and is bundled with the language and doesn't require additional set up. Not a guru such as yourself who can visualise what they are doing, and position widgets in their heads with pixel perfect accuracy, and deal with the 5 or so parameters per widget in the right order, and braced into sequences where required. In fact I believe in the distant past that we had a conversation regarding the development of a GUI designer for EuGTK, and you response was (paraphrased) 'great idea but hideously complex'. Its this front end complexity, the visual nature of GUI designers, that improves the connection for newcomers to the language.
Did you use the Glade GUI designer? Your site a has a mention, but no set up or usage instruction. If so how? What are the steps to set it up? Is there a tutorial? How do you use it? You see, these things may be simple to you, but they aren't to me, and I'm not exactly a computer slouch. If this is simple to set up and use, then this may be the bundle Eu has been looking for.
Ok, off to explore Glade, and see if I can work out how to integrate it.
Cheers
Chris
9. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2278 views
I bought the commercial version of Delphi several years ago, when it was Windows only. Too difficult to use, I thought, even tho I had written a number of commercial programs in Pascal (Turbo, to be exact). The new Delphi commercial version is in the several thousand dollar range, I'll have to pass on that. Even the 'toy' one is $200.
I've also used VisualBasic, maybe 10 years ago. It wouldn't be my choice nowdays - lots of 'foibles' as you mentioned.
As for Glade, You'll have to develop on Linux, as there doesn't seem to be a current version for Windows. Perhaps I'm wrong. Once you've got your program ready to run, it should run on Windows with no problem, since Glade isn't involved at that point.
As for setting it up, I don't recall doing anything but installing it from the Software Manager under the Programming tab. One click, and it's done. Then just open a new file and save it with the .glade extension. Under the File menu there's a Properties item, which lets you specify some things, such as which version of GTK you're aiming for. Mostly, you can ignore this, unless you want to be warned about using new controls that aren't implemented in earlier GTK releases.
There are some instructions included with EuGTK, and several example programs in the /examples/glade folder. Since there seem to be dozens of possible ways to use the combination of Glade and EuGTK, I need to write more documentation. I'll try to do that asap.
10. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) May 19, 2015
- 2301 views
My point is that Eu needs a visual designer, that doesn't fragment the language with different toolkits (but allows the option of using them where appropriate), and that is simple for a newcomer to pick up, and is bundled with the language and doesn't require additional set up. Not a guru such as yourself who can visualise what they are doing, and position widgets in their heads with pixel perfect accuracy, and deal with the 5 or so parameters per widget in the right order, and braced into sequences where required. In fact I believe in the distant past that we had a conversation regarding the development of a GUI designer for EuGTK, and you response was (paraphrased) 'great idea but hideously complex'. Its this front end complexity, the visual nature of GUI designers, that improves the connection for newcomers to the language.
(Emphasis mine)
No one should be arranging widgets with pixel-perfect accuracy (except maybe with Win32Lib).
wxWidgets includes Sizers and GTK+ includes Layout Containers, and both those accomplish the same thing.
-Greg
11. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2265 views
@Jean-Mark Duro
Please can you upload the version of win32lib for windoze 7, 64 bits that you said is working on Eu v4.1, about 3 months ago? I tried to do your patch but I get "Punctuation missing between number and S",
at patched line "result = d.SYSTEMTIME" where d was defined as atom just previously.
Thanks in anticipation,
Alan
12. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2269 views
I bought the commercial version of Delphi several years ago, when it was Windows only. Too difficult to use, I thought, even tho I had written a number of commercial programs in Pascal (Turbo, to be exact). The new Delphi commercial version is in the several thousand dollar range, I'll have to pass on that. Even the 'toy' one is $200.
Lazarus, an opensource kind of fork of Delphi, is free (lazarus.freepascal.net). CodeTyphon is a prepackaged version of Lazarus with lots of additional components included.
You can still use Turbo-Pascal code on Windows 7 or Linux with Virtual Pascal which still works event if it has not been updated since many years. You will even find Turbo-Pascal 7 for Windows 7/8/8.1, 32 or 64 bits, on TechApple.net.
Anyway, even if I use those and others, I prefer OpenEuphoria, yet with wxEuphoria.
Regards
Jean-Marc
13. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2253 views
OK Alan,
I check my PCs to find the one that has it and I upload it.
Regards
Jean-Marc
14. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2280 views
Upload done!
win32lib_w7_64.zip (size 1712025 bytes) has been received and is temporarily located at: http://www.RapidEuphoria.com/uploads/win32lib_w7_64.zip
16. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2224 views
Hi Jean-Marc,
I tried to download 3 times, to 2 different locations, each time same result. Broken archive, it contains only a landscape bitmap in the demo folder
17. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2242 views
As requested, an introduction to using Glade with EuGTK. This is just a start, if I'm going to write a whole book, maybe I'd better look for a publisher :)
18. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2248 views
The pixel perfect accuracy kind of crashes and burns when:
1. people use a different font than your program suggested (perhaps because they are visually impaired)
2. people use a different language, where the translated prompts or captions turn out to be longer than the space you allowed.
3. people use a right-to-left language, and your button and menu captions no longer look so cool.
There are probably some other conditions as well, those are just the ones I know about.
That's why automatic layout is the way to go.
19. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2218 views
...In fact I believe in the distant past that we had a conversation regarding the development of a GUI designer for EuGTK, and you response was (paraphrased) 'great idea but hideously complex'. Its this front end complexity, the visual nature of GUI designers, that improves the connection for newcomers to the language.
You are correct in both statements. Creating a GUI designer in Euphoria would be a great idea and a whole heap of work. It would satisfy those who insist that anything Eu uses should be written in Eu (I've said that myself). Yet I note that Wee uses scintilla, which is not written in Eu, and there seem to be plenty of people who are willing to include that as part of the Euphoria download. (Me included).
And indeed, having an 'approved' GUI designer would be a big boost to Euphoria. The real question is can it be done?
20. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2230 views
An email may be more relevant. Mine is jean-marc.duro@orange.fr.
Or you have to wait a few hours to let RDS update the Contributions page.
Regards
Jean-Marc
21. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2253 views
You don't have to wait anymore. It's there! http://www.rapideuphoria.com/win32lib_w7_64.zip
22. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2218 views
Oops, I didn't notice Ark (Linux) used Gzip when I put a text file with the Win32lib zip file in an archive.
I uploaded it once again, without the text file.
Sorry
Jean-Marc
23. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2227 views
Still broken... same error. I cleared browser cache and restarted firefox, latest version.
I have mailed you, If you could reply with the attachment please?
Very much appreciated!
24. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2215 views
Win32lib download still broken.
Even swapped my DSL service provider/modem. Tried MSIE too, same problem, only file is landscape.bmp in the demo resources folder.
Looks like I'm hitting a upstream server cache thats bad. :(
25. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2195 views
Alan, I didn't get your mail.
On the first upload, the external archive was in gzip format. It can be opened with 7-zip. It included a zip file and a text file.
The second upload is a pure zip file with no additional text file.
Jean-Marc
26. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2173 views
I've downloaded it ok. I have your email addr, want me to mail it?
27. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2217 views
Off topic..
Well, its 22h55 and 32 degrees here in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, so I'm off to bed.
Its only spring... I hear summer gets to 54 degrees at lunchtime rather than the 42 degrees at lunch now.
Somewhat hotter than my home in South Africa ;)
cheers, Alan
28. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2223 views
yes please irv,
its alano at fizzpopsolutions dot co dot za
29. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 19, 2015
- 2204 views
Gmail won't allow zip files! I've posted it here:
30. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2188 views
Thanks Irv and Jean-Marc,
I did get the zip via a email attachment from Jean-Marc.
Well, I'm told this almost works...?
I can can say it definitely, not almost, causes my Win v8.1 64 bit to have a registry error that launches a popup where you can only either restart or shut down.
I'll dig around tomorrow,
Cheers - Alan
31. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 19, 2015
- 2159 views
It works on my Seven 64 bits. Did you test it with the OpenEuphoria release I use (4.1 2012) ?
32. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2130 views
My eui -v says
v4.1.0 development 64-bit Windows
Revision Date: 2015-02-02 14:18:53
33. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 19, 2015
- 2143 views
I'll see about getting your version
34. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by elias_maluko May 20, 2015
- 2128 views
A interesting idea is develop a default-included 'euphoric' gui API for openeuphoria. Like VCL for Delphi and LCL for freepascal. The backend dont matter (win32/gtk/qt/cocoa) and can be swapped based in my current platform. Very small focused api (not a monster in size like wxwidgets). Instead of a bind for a gui lib, a comunity efort to develop an abstract gui in the simple euphoria way (like java have swing). Sorry my bad english :D
35. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 20, 2015
- 2129 views
Seems Jean-Marc's version of win32lib does not come with all required includes, or the Eu v4.1 downloads are missing it...
Line 574 of win32lib.ew contains
public include std/memstruct/windows.e
Same problem for both Eu 4.1 versions (eui -v) dated 2014-01-16(beta1) and 2015-02-02(beta2) available in Eu download links. All win64. I am running win 8.1 64 bits. Does anyone have this memstruct include directory?
36. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 20, 2015
- 2150 views
Hello Alan,
Before I send Eu 4.1 v2012-06, here is a full 32 bits combination which works also with Seven 64 bits:
http://jean-marc.duro.pagesperso-orange.fr/Euphoria4.zip
OpenEuphoria 4.0 + my restructured Win32lib version
Regards
Jean-Marc
37. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 20, 2015
- 2095 views
A interesting idea is develop a default-included 'euphoric' gui API for openeuphoria. Like VCL for Delphi and LCL for freepascal. The backend dont matter (win32/gtk/qt/cocoa) and can be swapped based in my current platform. Very small focused api (not a monster in size like wxwidgets). Instead of a bind for a gui lib, a comunity efort to develop an abstract gui in the simple euphoria way (like java have swing). Sorry my bad english :D
wxWidgets is not that complicated and it is multi-platform. We (or I) could write a subset of wxEuphoria functions to reduce its complexity.
My english is also poor, don't worry about that!
38. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) May 20, 2015
- 2192 views
Seems Jean-Marc's version of win32lib does not come with all required includes, or the Eu v4.1 downloads are missing it...
Line 574 of win32lib.ew contains
public include std/memstruct/windows.e
Same problem for both Eu 4.1 versions (eui -v) dated 2014-01-16(beta1) and 2015-02-02(beta2) available in Eu download links. All win64. I am running win 8.1 64 bits. Does anyone have this memstruct include directory?
This version requires a build based on the memstruct branch. I was working on converting win32lib to use the new memstruct features, because that's the best way to get win32lib to work in 64-bits mode. The structure code of win32lib is not easily made portable. You can get the updated win32lib code here:
https://sourceforge.net/p/win32libex/mercurial/ci/win64/tree/
I don't have a recent win64 build of the memstruct branch sitting around. I'll see if I can build one and upload it later today.
I had also been working on converting the win32lib IDE to work with 64-bits and the memstruct branch:
https://bitbucket.org/mattlewis/euwin32libide
I had previously posted here (nearly 3 years ago):
http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/118819.wc
Matt
39. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by jmduro May 20, 2015
- 2138 views
Euphoria 4.1 v2012-08-26 is available here:
http://jean-marc.duro.pagesperso-orange.fr/euphoria4-1_2012-08-26.zip
41. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 20, 2015
- 2105 views
Hi
This whole thread kind of proves my point.
It's incredibly frustrating for newcomers trying to get a functioning GUI program, it's irritating not to have a builder, and there are so many variants of Eu versions and library versions, let alone OS versions, and GTK wxwidgets versions and so on and so on, that Im afraid the language (and not just because of the language) has become fragmented.
I appreciate that placing widgets in auto sixing containers is the way to go, but my contention is that it's not intuitive for a newcomer to programming - let it be follow on process after getting a few programs under the belt. This is almost a topic in itself.
Irv, your start to programming with Glade is great, but the final line in the book (not sure what else to call it), directly conflicts with Eu's ethos of being simple to use. My argument goes like this - you already know what you are doing, so the process is simple to you, but for anyone new to programming the jump from integer x = 1 to you have to experiment to get lists working is too great a step (and yes, I'm exaggerating for effect). The photo of Mrs Warren is a definite plus however.
Ok, I've said what Eu doesn't have, here's what I think it should have.
- a stable bundle of binaries for windows, including the up to date libraries - you should be able to update your Eu install totally by doing this
- a stable bundle of binaries and libraries for other os s too
- a cutting edge unstable bundle, including libraries, binaries and source code for the various os s for those that wish to experiment / build / compile
- previous versions as space permits
- the windows version would be bundeled with WEE, the standard GUI toolkit, and ultimately a GUI builder of some sort. Note I don't specify the toolkit as yet - I guess there is a lot of discussion to be had about that. But unless there is a builder, this would be pointless.
I've downloaded and am experimenting with TinEGW, and this, and Redy, kind of go some way towards the features above. They aren't cross platform, are by no means as feature rich as wxEu or EuGTK, and while I am primarily a Linux programmer, I believe that the majority of newcomers / programmers will be Windows orientated. I guess that this too could potentially lead to language fragmentation too, but I am sure that there would be ways to organise to minimise this.
For those that argue that downloading a whole bundle of binaries and libraries would take too long, I disagree, but in that case you could organise a download tree like this. (a suggestion)
- Windows stable (version x.xx)
- Complete - binaries, libraries, GUI Toolkit and builder and documentation
- Binaries
- Libraries
- Documentation
- Windows Cutting Edge (version (x.xxa)
- Complete - binaries, libraries, GUI Toolkit and builder and documentation
- Binaries
- Libraries
- Documentation
- Linux stable (version x.xx)
- Complete - binaries, libraries, GUI Toolkit and builder and documentation
- Binaries
- Libraries
- Documentation
- Linux Cutting Edge (version (x.xxa)
- Complete - binaries, libraries, GUI Toolkit and builder and documentation
- Binaries
- Libraries
- Documentation
- And other OS s likewise
I realise this is a small community, with a small core of dedicated developers, and that these are a big ask, but I also believe that these issues, paricularly a standard, integrated toolkit need to be resolved to attract more users to Euphoria, and ensure its longevity.
Cheers
Chris
42. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 20, 2015
- 2123 views
Thanks Chris, I could also put it this way:
The hard work the developers are putting in, gets used/appreciated by a ever dwindling core of users, simply because of the issues with no "plonkable" GUI. IMHO obviously! Euphoria is a great tool; without the "plonkable" gui, its heading for a core of perhaps 5 developers and perhaps 50 users worldwide. Due to OS upgrades that are not avoidable, the option of persisting with old Euphoria versions is not viable for any length of time.
I thumbsuck my conclusions by looking at past vs now activity on the Euphoria websites.
Thanks,
Alan
P.S. I will try that 2012 release you have uploaded, thanks Jean-Marc
43. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 20, 2015
- 2070 views
SUCCESS with Jean-Marc's win32lib under windoze v8.1 64 bit!
I did have to fiddle with a few of my own includes and colours are not working yet, but no more crashes or system popups :)
Fortunately I keep my own includes separate from the Euphoria supplied ones. Reccommended practice ;)
Thanks guys
44. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) May 20, 2015
- 2078 views
SUCCESS with Jean-Marc's win32lib under windoze v8.1 64 bit!
I did have to fiddle with a few of my own includes and colours are not working yet, but no more crashes or system popups :)
Fortunately I keep my own includes separate from the Euphoria supplied ones. Reccommended practice ;)
Thanks guys
I've posted some updated windows binaries:
http://openeuphoria.org/eubins/struct/windows/64/
http://openeuphoria.org/eubins/struct/windows/32/
Matt
45. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by fizzpopsoft May 20, 2015
- 2098 views
Thanks Matt,
I am getting the same results with your 64bit binaries as with Jean-Marc's - win32lib successful but no colours.
For the record, here is the version info of those Euphoria v4.1 64 bit tested, scraped off a console window:
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.3.9600] (c) 2013 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
d:\euphoria\projects\jcu>eui -v ((Euphoria 4.1 download beta-1) Euphoria Interpreter v4.1.0 development 64-bit Windows, Using System Memory Revision Date: 2014-01-16 02:53:44, Id: 5783:d41527402a7a
d:\euphoria\projects\jcu>eui -v (Euphoria 4.1 download beta-2) Euphoria Interpreter v4.1.0 development 64-bit Windows, Using System Memory Revision Date: 2015-02-02 14:18:53, Id: 6300:57179171dbed
d:\euphoria\projects\jcu>eui -v (Jean-Marc upload) Euphoria Interpreter v4.1.0 development 64-bit Windows, Using System Memory Revision Date: 2012-07-26 10:40:54, Id: 5613:1afa523b0336
d:\euphoria\projects\jcu>eui -v (Matt of today) Euphoria Interpreter v4.1.0 development 64-bit Windows, Using System Memory Revision Date: 2015-02-13 18:10:12, Id: 6318:1c30095180a0
d:\euphoria\projects\jcu>
Forked into: 64-bit Win32lib
46. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 20, 2015
- 2118 views
It would certainly be possible to write, in Euphoria, a drag-and-drop GUI builder similar to Glade or QT Designer which would be a better 'fit' to Euphoria, and might even simplify some of the more complex issues that take actual programming skills.
It would be possible, but it's not going to happen. We're too far behind, it's like trying to get a model T Ford into the Daytona 500 (while arguing whether it should have rubber or concrete tires).
For example, download LiveCode and give it a try. You'll see what I'm talking about.
47. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 22, 2015
- 2024 views
My point (wish) is this - Eu should be a modern language, with an integrated IDE, and an integrated tool kit bundled with the download and installation, and even a gui designer, and while I hate to say this, the emphasis should be on windows. Most people using Linux will have some computing savvy, and will relish the challenge of getting stuff working. Its all very well having multiple toolkits available, but it fragments the language, and whenever there's an update, there's a risk of breaking something which may not be noticed for a while if we are all off using our own preferred toolkit.
Perhaps the question should be: will people without computing savvy have any real interest in programming?
You may recall years ago someone posted a request on the RDS forum: "What do I type to make a game?"
The correct answer to that question would probably be: "a college application". There's a limit to how easy programming can get.
And as you can see from reading the posts here, no matter which toolkit is chosen to be the 'official' one, there will be people who are dissatisfied that it won't do -x- as well as -y- can do it. Or it won't run on DOS, or toasters, or ...
I say give people a choice. If they know what they are doing, they'll find what works best for them. If they don't, well, nothing you can supply is going to help much.
48. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) May 22, 2015
- 2013 views
"What do I type to make a game?"
"a college application"
Ha! I like it. It's a little snarky but it gets the point across.
I say give people a choice. If they know what they are doing, they'll find what works best for them. If they don't, well, nothing you can supply is going to help much.
I believe the idiom to apply here is, "you can lead a horse water, but you cannot make him drink."
-Greg
49. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by irv May 22, 2015
- 1977 views
It's pretty much true in my own case. I never paid much attention to math, algebra, calc... which is one reason I haven't tried to make many graphics demos to go with EuGTK. The physics eludes me. The other reason is that GTK3 will have built-in openGL support in the near future, so it seems like a good idea to wait for that. Then I could port some demos easily.
50. Re: Frustrated again!
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 22, 2015
- 2006 views
Hi Irv
Had a look at LiveCode, quite interesting, and obviously built a up a large following very quickly because of its ethos.
I agree with what you said, in that Eu should not try to be all things to all non-coders, but my original point is this - that I (as an individual programmer) should not have to spend a large proportion of my time faffing about with the library, trying to get all the libs to co-operate with each other, I should just be able to install the library that I want, with the toolkit that works, and be able to program with it.
A case in point is this - I've just installed jmduro's win32lib-etc, and the win32lib demos work fine, but a lot of other win32 lib programs don't that used to before, including IDE. I've added the path in eu.cfg, and I will be able to get it working, but I shouldn't have to (I'm not going to go into what the error list is here, suffice to say I can follow, and know what's happening, but I shouldn't need to have to fix it. The wxEuphoria demos also work fine, so good job, and its a definite first step, but I'm still banging my head.
This is why I believe that Euphoria needs an install that installs everything a newcomer needs, and expects, when they install a new programming, and absolutely, its not going to be all things to all men, but those that wish to take it forward with more advanced toolkits will surely do so. This should also be updated when Eu and the libraries updates, so that updating Eu is simply a matter of download and installing the whole lot to give a working 'base' install. As I said, jmduros archive is a great first step, and I see that it has been touted on the news page. It should include the compiled IDE (I have 1.04), as I know that this works, and I think it shouldn't be long (in programming time, not absolute time) to get the exw to work.
And just to re-iterate again, this is not a rant aimed at any individual members, just my own personal rant at the frustrations I come across time and again that shouldn't exist, and that I know newcomers will face, and that I also appreciate all the work that the various contributors make, to make Eu the great language that I have enjoyed for many years.
Cheers
Chris
