1. Moderation

I see my posts are back in moderation , or just being deleted. This is why i am useless. You make me so. It's useless for me to do anything.

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2. Re: Moderation

I noticed that. Is it fair to keep someone on the bad list for something that happened ~9 months ago?

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3. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

I noticed that. Is it fair to keep someone on the bad list for something that happened ~9 months ago?

+1

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4. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

I noticed that. Is it fair to keep someone on the bad list for something that happened ~9 months ago?

Definitely not, if it was only one incident and that someone has a clean record before and since. Especially not if the person apologizes or is otherwise able to come to a compromise with the moderators and other parties (if applicable)...

It's more justifiable for someone who tends to make a habit out of it... and even more so when that habit tends to pop up shortly after extended moderation is turned off...

That said, no one is subjected to this on a permanent basis. A long enough period of good behavior, by itself, will result in this being lifted. Violations within a period could get it extended, however. (Which is how it's possible that the period could be longer than 9 months.)

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5. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
ryanj said...

I noticed that. Is it fair to keep someone on the bad list for something that happened ~9 months ago?

Definitely not, if it was only one incident and that someone has a clean record before and since. Especially not if the person apologizes or is otherwise able to come to a compromise with the moderators and other parties (if applicable)...

It's more justifiable for someone who tends to make a habit out of it... and even more so when that habit tends to pop up shortly after extended moderation is turned off...

That said, no one is subjected to this on a permanent basis. A long enough period of good behavior, by itself, will result in this being lifted. Violations within a period could get it extended, however. (Which is how it's possible that the period could be longer than 9 months.)

Well, i can see "someone's" post was deleted again. I happen to know exactly what she said this time. Was it a "personal attack"? I suppose, but it was only against the one doing the moderation. Now she will be even more upset, and will probably say something else, only to be deleted by you again. So the cycle continues, she is bitter and you have complete control over what she can and can't say here, and it's just your word against hers. When will this stop?

I hate getting in the middle of this, but i must, because "someone" is not just some random spammer or troll that needs to be silenced. She is part of the Euphoria community, and has been longer than many of us, and even though she has said things in the past that you felt needed to be moderated, she does have valuable ideas and contributions to this community.

This needs to stop. So, this is what i suggest for both of you.

  • useless - I suggest you stop using "useless" as a name on this forum, because that says you are already assuming anything you say should just be ignored or deleted. With that kind of attitude and image, you might as well not post anything. Instead, please use your original nick - kat, eukat, or katsmeow. With that name, also bring a new attitude and new image of yourself - don't say anything out of negative emotions. Punch a wall or cuss at jimcbrown or smash a keyboard or whatever you need to do to vent, but don't type it on this forum. You have valuable things to say that are relevant to Euphoria, so please moderate yourself.
  • jimcbrown - You know you have the power to do anything to this forum as an admin, and you can delete or edit posts. But you also have the ability to be diplomatic to resolve problems before they degrade into flame wars that appear one-sided because you have deleted the "offending party's" ability to defend themselves while you appear to be fair and just. It's just your word against hers. Whatever happened in the past, we can't do anything about that. But in the present, i suggest you remove the ban/wait for moderation from kat/eukat/katsmeow. Leaving the ban on "useless" is reasonable, because nobody wants to hear what "useless" has to say. But I would like to hear what "Kat" has to say.

Lets sign a peace treaty and start fresh, ok?

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6. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

Lets sign a peace treaty and start fresh, ok?

I feel this is the most important aspect of your reply. I am completely willing to do this.

ryanj said...

I hate getting in the middle of this, but i must,

I've said before that I was willing to compromise. It appears Kat isn't, at least not directly, but if a middleman can help accomplish that, then I'm all for it.

ryanj said...

Well, i can see "someone's" post was deleted again. I happen to know exactly what she said this time.

that appear one-sided because you have deleted the "offending party's" ability to defend themselves while you appear to be fair and just. It's just your word against hers.

Yes, so does anyone else who might be interested. Deleted posts are publicly visible. So are all edits made to posts. This system is designed to be transparent, so that not only other moderators but the general public can review what happened and judge the original moderator.

ryanj said...

because "someone" is not just some random spammer or troll that needs to be silenced. She is part of the Euphoria community, and has been longer than many of us, and even though she has said things in the past that you felt needed to be moderated, she does have valuable ideas and contributions to this community.

Agreed. I therefore point out that the current system was a compromise designed to allow Kat to express her valuable ideas and contributions while simply filtering out things which may be inappropriate. There are many forums and blogs which require moderator approval of ALL comments before they become visible... this is just another version of that.

Other users of this forum (such as Critic) have been banned for less.

ryanj said...

This needs to stop. So, this is what i suggest for both of you.

  • useless - I suggest you stop using "useless" as a name on this forum, because that says you are already assuming anything you say should just be ignored or deleted. With that kind of attitude and image, you might as well not post anything. Instead, please use your original nick - kat, eukat, or katsmeow. With that name, also bring a new attitude and new image of yourself - don't say anything out of negative emotions. Punch a wall or cuss at jimcbrown or smash a keyboard or whatever you need to do to vent, but don't type it on this forum. You have valuable things to say that are relevant to Euphoria, so please moderate yourself.
  • jimcbrown - You know you have the power to do anything to this forum as an admin, and you can delete or edit posts. But you also have the ability to be diplomatic to resolve problems before they degrade into flame wars But in the present, i suggest you remove the ban/wait for moderation from kat/eukat/katsmeow. Leaving the ban on "useless" is reasonable, because nobody wants to hear what "useless" has to say. But I would like to hear what "Kat" has to say.

Lets sign a peace treaty and start fresh, ok?

Agreed. I'll be happy to abide by the terms you have laid out if Kat does as well and follows the CodeOfConduct (and since it's a fresh start, any violations will be followed up by the gradual scale used for newbies - moderator warnings on the forum, private emails, and so on).

Technically, only two of the usernames that I know of that Kat has used are under extended moderation (not banned, mind you, just moderated): useless_ and john1988. In fact, the user account useless and an even older one (it was either Kat or katsmeow) remain wholely unmoderated.

If Kat wants to start fresh with another new user account, that's also perfectly acceptable.

ryanj said...

Was it a "personal attack"? I suppose, but it was only against the one doing the moderation.

Whatever happened in the past, we can't do anything about that.

Imagine this. A police officer pulls you over for speeding and gives you a ticket. Is that something personal? I'd think not - the officer is just doing their job.

Now imagine that you attempt to fight back by swearing at the officer, insulting that person's ancestry, etc etc. Does it become personal at this point? I'd say yes, but only because you made it so.

Now imagine that you tried to claim that all this happened because of a personal dislike the officer took to you. In my view, such a claim is patently false.

One can take this further. Imagine this was taken as a valid defense. Now imagine that you were able to somehow arrange for such an incident to occur with every police officer in the world. Now what? Every police officer now has a 'personal' problem with you, so none of them can enforce the law against you.

You've now made yourself immune to all of law enforcement. You can do anything you want, entirely unrestrained.

Do you see the problem here?

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7. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

Do you see the problem here?

But like you said, ryanj, the past is the past. I think we can agree to disagree on what happened in the past and still have our fresh start.

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8. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

I noticed that. Is it fair to keep someone on the bad list for something that happened ~9 months ago?

Depends on how bad they were.

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9. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

Deleted posts are publicly visible.

How does one see them? I normally keep hitting the "newer post" link and occasionally I get a "deleted post" error or whatever. I don't see anything obvious on the page here about deleted posts (and I'm an admin, even).

Matt

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10. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

Was it a "personal attack"? I suppose...

Then jim is in the right.

ryanj said...

...but it was only against the one doing the moderation.

Irrelevant.

ryanj said...

Now she will be even more upset...

So?

ryanj said...

...she is bitter and you have complete control over what she can and can't say here, and it's just your word against hers. When will this stop?

When she is banned from the forum?

ryanj said...

She is part of the Euphoria community...

By a thread. (No pun intended.)

ryanj said...

she does have valuable ideas and contributions to this community.

Debatable. Our dev team > one person.

ryanj said...

So, this is what i suggest for both of you.

Reasonable suggestions, but you obviously don't know kat. She can't behave. If she was just persnickety, her eccentricities would be tolerable given her passion for coding. I really wish there was a reasonable kat, because she does have good ideas and obvious skills and a love for all of it. How awesome would that be? She could be the queen of Euphoria! I mean, how many females we got parsing this forum? She really should take advantage of that circumstance. grin

jimcbrown deleting posts is diplomacy.

ryanj said...

It's just your word against hers.

It's the dev team's word against hers. While jim may act with autonomy in our name, it's not like we're unaware of the circumstances or can be. Jim- and all the dev team and admins- have proven to be reasonable and level-headed and all of us have only the best intentions for Euphoria in mind. I don't even need proof. If Matt or Derek or Jim or any of the other admins or devs do something without evidence, they have earned my trust- and the community's- to not be questioned. Of course, I'm not blind. If they wanted to censor you, for example, or David Cuny (that belligerent old codger!*), I might have to have a little evidence... blink

*said with great humor and affection! tongue

EDIT ADD: I want also to say that Kat has advocates on the dev/admin team(s). Whereas I am usually adamantly opposed to kat's interactions in our public forums, Derek has a more patient approach. I think we all appreciate Kat's coding passion and ability; we just differ on how acceptable she is for public exposure.

ryanj said...

...because nobody wants to hear what "useless" has to say. But I would like to hear what "Kat" has to say.

That's reasonable. In this case, I defer to jim.

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11. Re: Moderation

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Deleted posts are publicly visible.

How does one see them? I normally keep hitting the "newer post" link and occasionally I get a "deleted post" error or whatever. I don't see anything obvious on the page here about deleted posts (and I'm an admin, even).

Matt

I've mentioned this before, e.g. http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/121529.wc

To see all posts, go to http://openeuphoria.org/recently_deleted.wc

Since then, I've added something new. Seeing an individual post is harder, since there's no short link to it. But you can do this if you want to.

Basically, go to http://openeuphoria.org/euweb.cgi?module=forum&action=deleted_message&id=NNN where NNN is the id of the deleted message.

E.g. http://openeuphoria.org/euweb.cgi?module=forum&action=deleted_message&id=125852

I've also mentioned another view (at http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/124093.wc ), which lets you see posts pending in the moderation queue. That is http://openeuphoria.org/recently_awaitingmoderation.wc

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12. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Deleted posts are publicly visible.

How does one see them? I normally keep hitting the "newer post" link and occasionally I get a "deleted post" error or whatever. I don't see anything obvious on the page here about deleted posts (and I'm an admin, even).

I've mentioned this before, e.g. http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/121529.wc

To see all posts, go to http://openeuphoria.org/recently_deleted.wc

This is pretty useless (heh) IMO without something in the UI.

jimcbrown said...

Since then, I've added something new. Seeing an individual post is harder, since there's no short link to it. But you can do this if you want to.

Basically, go to http://openeuphoria.org/euweb.cgi?module=forum&action=deleted_message&id=NNN where NNN is the id of the deleted message.

Why the extra hoops? Can we get some actual links? At least for mods / admins? I'm fine with allowing logged in users to see that, too, frankly.

Matt

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13. Re: Moderation

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...
mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Deleted posts are publicly visible.

How does one see them? I normally keep hitting the "newer post" link and occasionally I get a "deleted post" error or whatever. I don't see anything obvious on the page here about deleted posts (and I'm an admin, even).

I've mentioned this before, e.g. http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/121529.wc

To see all posts, go to http://openeuphoria.org/recently_deleted.wc

This is pretty useless (heh) IMO without something in the UI.

UI? What do you mean by that?

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Since then, I've added something new. Seeing an individual post is harder, since there's no short link to it. But you can do this if you want to.

Basically, go to http://openeuphoria.org/euweb.cgi?module=forum&action=deleted_message&id=NNN where NNN is the id of the deleted message.

Why the extra hoops? Can we get some actual links? At least for mods / admins? I'm fine with allowing logged in users to see that, too, frankly.

Matt

I'm fine with that. It was just quick & dirty and I missed that. Where would you like the links to go?

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14. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
mattlewis said...

This is pretty useless (heh) IMO without something in the UI.

UI? What do you mean by that?

A link or a button or something, instead of typing stuff into the address bar.

jimcbrown said...

I'm fine with that. It was just quick & dirty and I missed that. Where would you like the links to go?

I'd think a "recently deleted" link that goes to that view you mentioned. And then when you click on the posts in that view, you see the post instead of the error page for looking at a deleted post.

Matt

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15. Re: Moderation

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...
mattlewis said...

This is pretty useless (heh) IMO without something in the UI.

UI? What do you mean by that?

A link or a button or something, instead of typing stuff into the address bar.

Ah, no problem.

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

I'm fine with that. It was just quick & dirty and I missed that. Where would you like the links to go?

I'd think a "recently deleted" link that goes to that view you mentioned. And then when you click on the posts in that view, you see the post instead of the error page for looking at a deleted post.

Matt

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

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16. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

I'm coming in a little late on this conversation, but, could this be an additional "Deleted" checkbox on the Recent page? It could be unchecked by default.

-Greg

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17. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

No, I don't think it should be that prominent. Something like the Misc Menu.

Matt

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18. Re: Moderation

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

I'm fine with that. It was just quick & dirty and I missed that. Where would you like the links to go?

I'd think a "recently deleted" link that goes to that view you mentioned. And then when you click on the posts in that view, you see the post instead of the error page for looking at a deleted post.

Done.

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

No, I don't think it should be that prominent. Something like the Misc Menu.

Done.

ghaberek said...
jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

I'm coming in a little late on this conversation, but, could this be an additional "Deleted" checkbox on the Recent page? It could be unchecked by default.

I'll work on this, but it's a little harder to do.

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19. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

I'm fine with that. It was just quick & dirty and I missed that. Where would you like the links to go?

I'd think a "recently deleted" link that goes to that view you mentioned. And then when you click on the posts in that view, you see the post instead of the error page for looking at a deleted post.

Done.

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

No, I don't think it should be that prominent. Something like the Misc Menu.

Done.

ghaberek said...
jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

I'm coming in a little late on this conversation, but, could this be an additional "Deleted" checkbox on the Recent page? It could be unchecked by default.

I'll work on this, but it's a little harder to do.

Sorry to disturb, but i do not think that this links should be public (to each and everyone and to all the robots).

Maybe they should only be available to logged in users.

Just my point of view.

Andreas

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20. Re: Moderation

andi49 said...

Sorry to disturb, but i do not think that this links should be public (to each and everyone and to all the robots).

Maybe they should only be available to logged in users.

Just my point of view.

Andreas

Ok, changed.

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21. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

I've said before that I was willing to compromise. It appears Kat isn't, at least not directly, but if a middleman can help accomplish that, then I'm all for it.

There's no method of contacting anyone connected to this forum, except to post to the forum. When posting to the forum while banned, more than one post i considered private to jimcbrown was let thru, and then used against me. The problem with your "compromising" is i have never heard anything in private from admins, and i cannot contact admins.

jimcbrown said...

Technically, only two of the usernames that I know of that Kat has used are under extended moderation (not banned, mind you, just moderated): useless_ and john1988.

I have never used the nick john1988, or even seen any posts by that nick.

jimcbrown said...

Imagine this. A police officer pulls you over for speeding and gives you a ticket. Is that something personal? I'd think not - the officer is just doing their job.

Now imagine that you attempt to fight back by swearing at the officer, insulting that person's ancestry, etc etc. Does it become personal at this point? I'd say yes, but only because you made it so.

What if the dashcam caught the officer calling you john1988, and doing other things, while gagging you?

jimcbrown said...

Now imagine that you tried to claim that all this happened because of a personal dislike the officer took to you. In my view, such a claim is patently false.

What if the officer claimed to be trying to compromise, yet making sure the victim had no way to speak to anyone?

I need to point out that i am answering your comments and accusations against me, and i see no difference in this procedure than everything previous that you claim is a ban-able offense. So i expect you to wrongfully delete this post as a "continuation of the old habits". Please remember, there is no way to contact admin in private to say what i have said.

Kat

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22. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...
jimcbrown said...

I've said before that I was willing to compromise. It appears Kat isn't, at least not directly, but if a middleman can help accomplish that, then I'm all for it.

There's no method of contacting anyone connected to this forum, except to post to the forum. When posting to the forum while banned, more than one post i considered private to jimcbrown was let thru, and then used against me. The problem with your "compromising" is i have never heard anything in private from admins, and i cannot contact admins.

That's a good point ... the only other way of making contact is through the dev list or through _tom's Open Euphony http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/125105.wc

I believe ChrisB, one of the moderators, has published his email address on this forum. If necessary he could forward a message from you.

I do believe know others, such as Matt, have tried to contact you by email before as well..

BTW, sorry to be pedantic, but that was not a ban. Banned users can not post at all.

katsmeow said...

Please remember, there is no way to contact admin in private to say what i have said.

Glad I pointed out some methods then. Remember that doing so is part of the agreement that ryanj came up with.

ryanj said...

With that name, also bring a new attitude and new image of yourself - don't say anything out of negative emotions. Punch a wall or cuss at jimcbrown or smash a keyboard or whatever you need to do to vent, but don't type it on this forum. You have valuable things to say that are relevant to Euphoria, so please moderate yourself.

katsmeow said...
jimcbrown said...

Imagine this. A police officer pulls you over for speeding and gives you a ticket. Is that something personal? I'd think not - the officer is just doing their job.

Now imagine that you attempt to fight back by swearing at the officer, insulting that person's ancestry, etc etc. Does it become personal at this point? I'd say yes, but only because you made it so.

What if the dashcam caught the officer calling you john1988, and doing other things, while gagging you?

At that point, the officer crossed the line and made it personal. But that's not what happened here.

katsmeow said...
jimcbrown said...

Now imagine that you tried to claim that all this happened because of a personal dislike the officer took to you. In my view, such a claim is patently false.

What if the officer claimed to be trying to compromise, yet making sure the victim had no way to speak to anyone?

No officer should do that. That would be crossing another line. Again, however, that's not what happened here. If I really had that power, ryanj would not have been able to communicate with you directly to know of your views.

And of course, the ability to review deleted and edited posts by logged in users has been part of this forum for a very long time.

katsmeow said...
jimcbrown said...

Technically, only two of the usernames that I know of that Kat has used are under extended moderation (not banned, mind you, just moderated): useless_ and john1988.

I have never used the nick john1988, or even seen any posts by that nick.

Well, I am looking at http://openeuphoria.org/euweb.cgi?module=forum&action=deleted_message&id=124109 and http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/124091.wc

There's a post by you, http://openeuphoria.org/euweb.cgi?module=forum&action=deleted_message&id=124090 , with very similar content to what john1988 wrote.

katsmeow said...

I need to point out that i am answering your comments and accusations against me, and i see no difference in this procedure than everything previous that you claim is a ban-able offense.

Yes, with your very first post since ryanj's compromise, you've violated the agreement that ryanj came up with. Consider yourself warned.

I also find very discouraging the fact that you have not explicitly stated your agreement to ryanj's compromise or promised to abide by it (and neither has ryanj posted, acting as middleman, stated that he had received your agreement). I already have, but it takes two to tango. My agreement to abide by the deal is conditional on yours as well.

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23. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

I also find very discouraging the fact that you have not explicitly stated your agreement to ryanj's compromise or promised to abide by it (and neither has ryanj posted, acting as middleman, stated that he had received your agreement). I already have, but it takes two to tango. My agreement to abide by the deal is conditional on yours as well.

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not. You claim i refused compromise, but there was no way to communicate, unless, as you say, to scour every post everyone has ever made, looking for email addresses. And you deny that you effectively banned/gagged me thru moderation, while deleting and editing my posts, and everyone can see you have deleted my posts (you gave urls to show you deleted some of my posts), both while in moderation and after allowing them to be made public.

I agree to Ryan's proposal, i have always said if you got off my back that i could ignore you. How are you compromising by publicly insisting i am john1988 and that you have not banned me? I am trying to understand this. If you'd like to take this off of Euphorum, please provide an official email or url which all admins can read and respond to.

Kat

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24. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...

I agree to Ryan's proposal,

That's good, however....

katsmeow said...

i have always said if you got off my back that i could ignore you.

That's not part of the proposal. ryanj only said to use more diplomacy, but did not require that I cease moderator duties altogether.

katsmeow said...

How are you compromising by publicly insisting i am john1988 and that you have not banned me?

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not. You claim i refused compromise, but there was no way to communicate, unless, as you say, to scour every post everyone has ever made, looking for email addresses. And you deny that you effectively banned/gagged me thru moderation, while deleting and editing my posts, and everyone can see you have deleted my posts (you gave urls to show you deleted some of my posts), both while in moderation and after allowing them to be made public.

You agree to ryanj's proposal and violate it in the same post. This is unacceptable.

I will compromise one step further, and let you have the last word on those issues in the above post that I quoted. Now we should both drop it (at least on the forum).

katsmeow said...

I am trying to understand this. If you'd like to take this off of Euphorum, please provide an official email or url which all admins can read and respond to.

This is a very specific requirement... the only thing that we have that fits is rapideuphoria-develop@lists.sourceforge.net

Possibly, the admins could set up an admins AT openeuphoria dot org mailing list as well. I'll see if this can be looked into.

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25. Re: Moderation

Hi

I would be more than happy to act as an email forwarder for those that wish to contact a specific admin directly, However, I don't have all the admins email addresses.

It would also be a trivial matter to set up a gmail account (accessible to all admins), that could automatically forward emails to either all admins, or specific ones directly. If you want me to set this up, let me know.

My email address (to avoid trawling through posts) is crylex at gmail dot com

Gmail has a very effective filter, so while I am constantly assailed by spam, I get to read very little of it (I really don't need those pills you know!)

Chris

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26. Re: Moderation

ChrisB said...

Hi

I would be more than happy to act as an email forwarder for those that wish to contact a specific admin directly, However, I don't have all the admins email addresses.

Again, thank you for doing this.

ChrisB said...

It would also be a trivial matter to set up a gmail account (accessible to all admins), that could automatically forward emails to either all admins, or specific ones directly. If you want me to set this up, let me know.

Actually, we've been wanting something like this for some time now. If you could set this up for us, that'd be great!

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27. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not.

A post by john1988 was signed "useless." Of course it was you. Do you want to suggest that someone stole your identity and posted as you, or do you want to confess.

Of course it was you.

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28. Re: Moderation

euphoric said...
katsmeow said...

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not.

A post by john1988 was signed "useless." Of course it was you. Do you want to suggest that someone stole your identity and posted as you, or do you want to confess.

Of course it was you.

Can we please take this off the forum? I'm sure we all have more important things to do, like get 4.1 out the door or work on projects like Redy.

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29. Re: Moderation

euphoric said...
katsmeow said...

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not.

A post by john1988 was signed "useless." Of course it was you. Do you want to suggest that someone stole your identity and posted as you, or do you want to confess.

Of course it was you.

I am saying someone else signed as nick useless, if what you say is true. Surely jimcbrown (aka iamlost) has the IP address of that poster.

Kat

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30. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...
euphoric said...
katsmeow said...

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not.

A post by john1988 was signed "useless." Of course it was you. Do you want to suggest that someone stole your identity and posted as you, or do you want to confess.

Of course it was you.

I am saying someone else signed as nick useless, if what you say is true. Surely jimcbrown (aka iamlost) has the IP address of that poster.

Kat

Since you invited me to reply, I shall do so.

I do in fact have that information. Here it is. This information is provided as-is, with no warranty. As promised, I refrain from drawing any conclusions or opinions from this.

Last known ip address of john1988, circa 2014-04-22: [REDACTED]7.183

ip address of useless_, circa 2014-04-22: [REDACTED]7.183

current ip of useless_ : [REDACTED]0.202

ip address of katsmeow, circa 2009-04-02 (last date information is available before 2014-04-22): [REDACTED]9.3

current ip of katsmeow : [REDACTED]0.202

euphoric, if you have a response to this, please response outside of the forum...

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31. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...
euphoric said...
katsmeow said...

Your posts prior to mine claim i am nick john1988, but i am not.

A post by john1988 was signed "useless." Of course it was you. Do you want to suggest that someone stole your identity and posted as you, or do you want to confess.

Of course it was you.

I am saying someone else signed as nick useless, if what you say is true. Surely jimcbrown (aka iamlost) has the IP address of that poster.

Kat

Since you invited me to reply, I shall do so.

I do in fact have that information. Here it is. This information is provided as-is, with no warranty. As promised, I refrain from drawing any conclusions or opinions from this.

Last known ip address of john1988, circa 2014-04-22: [REDACTED]7.183

ip address of useless_, circa 2014-04-22: [REDACTED]7.183

Wait a minute, we posted on the same day from the same ip?!?

Edit: i just checked my irc logs, and i joined #Euphoria at 6:17:41pm cst from ip [REDACTED]7.183. I joined to say "I'd need to point out someone deleted another of my posts." etc. Either someone in that channel decided to spoof the ip, or more likely someone with admin on this site altered the deleted post to sign it john1988. I wouldn't use the same ip to sign up as someone else, i'd have used Tor.

Kat

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32. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...

Either someone in that channel decided to spoof the ip, or more likely someone with admin on this site altered the deleted post to sign it john1988.

This would have some serious implications if it in fact happened, so I decided to investigate it.

I found no evidence of any deleted posts that had been signed (that is, with a line indicating the name of the user at the bottom of the post) with the text john1988. In fact, in the only deleted post owned by john1988, it was signed with a different name.

Editing a post that had already been deleted (or doing other things like changing the user account associated with a post) is something that even a normal admin of this website can not do. This requires a special level of access that is only available to four individuals: me, mattlewis, myself, jeremy, euphoric, and I.

Additionally, Jeremy has independent copies of forum posts and other database changes. So, to fool anything more than a casual investigation, a rogue admin would have to directly access Jeremy's systems and make changes to files on his system as well. My understanding is that Jeremy himself is the only person with legitimate access to the systems that have this information.

Thus, theoretically Jeremy is the only person with enough privileges to be able to pull this off undetected.

On the flip side of the coin, the number of individuals who could have potentionally spoofed the ip live appears to be unlimited. In addition to users present in the IRC channel, there is an IRC log of that day on this web site. So someone not present in the channel could still have enough information to spoof the ip address.

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33. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Either someone in that channel decided to spoof the ip, or more likely someone with admin on this site altered the deleted post to sign it john1988.

This would have some serious implications if it in fact happened, so I decided to investigate it.

I found no evidence of any deleted posts that had been signed (that is, with a line indicating the name of the user at the bottom of the post) with the text john1988. In fact, in the only deleted post owned by john1988, it was signed with a different name.

Editing a post that had already been deleted (or doing other things like changing the user account associated with a post) is something that even a normal admin of this website can not do. This requires a special level of access that is only available to four individuals: me, mattlewis, myself, jeremy, euphoric, and I.

Additionally, Jeremy has independent copies of forum posts and other database changes. So, to fool anything more than a casual investigation, a rogue admin would have to directly access Jeremy's systems and make changes to files on his system as well. My understanding is that Jeremy himself is the only person with legitimate access to the systems that have this information.

Thus, theoretically Jeremy is the only person with enough privileges to be able to pull this off undetected.

On the flip side of the coin, the number of individuals who could have potentionally spoofed the ip live appears to be unlimited. In addition to users present in the IRC channel, there is an IRC log of that day on this web site. So someone not present in the channel could still have enough information to spoof the ip address.

It's really sad that the precious mental resources of the developers have to be wasted on this thread.

Some advice for useless_: just drop that username, register with a new (neutral) username, and you will have a new life on this forum. Nobody will discriminate against you or bother you. But, of course, you must quit that revengeful attitude and stop complaining about being discriminated against. Can't you do that?

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34. Re: Moderation

GreenEuphorian said...

It's really sad that the precious mental resources of the developers have to be wasted on this thread.

It's not doing me any good either. Over the years it's made me very reluctant to share any more code.

GreenEuphorian said...

Some advice for useless_: just drop that username, register with a new (neutral) username, and you will have a new life on this forum. Nobody will discriminate against you or bother you. But, of course, you must quit that revengeful attitude and stop complaining about being discriminated against. Can't you do that?

Of course i can, but i do not see any change in the behavior during the last week of those who have it in their heart that they'd rather see me dead than ever post on Euphorum again. You don't understand, some have hated me since well before there was an openeuphoria, and they shall continue to. You say "stop complaining about being discriminated against", and i say "how about they stop discriminating against me?".

And just watch, i answered you in a level tone of voice, i mentioned no names, and i'll bet my answer gets deleted, and your question goes unanswered on this forum. And i did look in #Euphoria on irc to answer you privately before i posted here.

Kat

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35. Re: Moderation

I keep looking at this thread, thinking about responding to various specific comments, but so many things have been said that i just can't keep up. So, i will just make a few points:

  1. I have been chatting with katsmeow for 10+ years, and although she has her emotional ups and downs and occasionally has blown up and disappeared for months at a time, i don't take it personally, and i have no problem getting along with her, and i enjoy chatting with her about a variety of topics. I think i know her well enough to realize she isn't a total psycho. I can understand why she is bitter about certain things, because of bad experiences with people. I am really irritated that some people have taken this opportunity to take another stab at her. Thanks! That helps a lot with the situation. Good job!
  2. I don't see how kat has violated the terms of the peace treaty i wrote out. I would consider this thread to be neutral ground. Do we need to be nit-picking over details? We are already declaring kat to be in violation of the terms of agreement? Wow, can't you cut her some slack, considering she is actually talking about stuff relevant to the topic of this thread?
  3. We could keep arguing about whether or not kat = john1988, which can't really be proven one way or the other. I don't think it helps to keep arguing about what happened in the past on a public forum, but it is difficult to bring up grievances privately because there isn't a system set up for that. I'm glad a solution is now being worked on for talking about matters like this with the admins privately instead of publicly.
  4. It seems like there are some things that need to be improved in general in the Euphoria community, as far as how we communicate about things. I will post more of my thoughts about this soon in the proper forum thread.
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36. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

I keep looking at this thread, thinking about responding to various specific comments, but so many things have been said that i just can't keep up. So, i will just make a few points:

I think this is a shame, but understandable. I think it would have been quite helpful to know what your specific responses to specific comments would have been.

ryanj said...

1. I have been chatting with katsmeow for 10+ years, and although she has her emotional ups and downs and occasionally has blown up and disappeared for months at a time, i don't take it personally, and i have no problem getting along with her, and i enjoy chatting with her about a variety of topics.

I have seen that you have been on the receiving end from katsmeow before, therefore I would rate this statement of yours quite highly. From where I'm standing, you've been in the same position as the moderators and everyone else who has tried to mediate.

Most unfortunately, I feel that it is extremely unrealistic to be able to expect everyone to be able to handle things the way you do. (Conversely, if everyone did handle things the way you do, there's be no need for moderators in the first place!)

More saliently, the peace treaty you wrote was between katsmeow and myself. As you've seen, I'm actually the guy in the middle - the real "combatants" of this "battle" are other individuals ... who happen to be nonsignatories to the peace treaty.

I, without consulation, unilaterally agreed to the peace treaty because I believed that katsmeow's self-moderation, under the terms of your peace treaty, would have been enough pacify the others. Now I'm beginning to wonder whether or not this is truly the case...

ryanj said...

I think i know her well enough to realize she isn't a total psycho.

I don't think anyone has alleged that she was.

ryanj said...

I am really irritated that some people have taken this opportunity to take another stab at her. Thanks! That helps a lot with the situation. Good job!

We share the same sentiments.

ryanj said...

3. We could keep arguing about whether or not kat = john1988,

I feel it's best if such arguments, if they must be had, be done off of the forum.

ryanj said...

I don't think it helps to keep arguing about what happened in the past on a public forum,

Agreed. I think this holds true for all participants, including katsmeow herself. Bring up old and invalid arguments from the past to defend herself (such as here: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126375.wc ) do nothing to help anyone move forward.

ryanj said...

but it is difficult to bring up grievances privately because there isn't a system set up for that.

I did in fact set one up, but I was later asked by another admin to make those "private messages" public. I feel the current view is that everything that happens on this forum must be made public. There's virtually no support for a private messaging facility.

ryanj said...

I'm glad a solution is now being worked on for talking about matters like this with the admins privately instead of publicly.

Actually, katsmeow had already privatedly emailed several of the admins prior to your coming up with the peace treaty.

ryanj said...

We could keep arguing about whether or not kat = john1988, which can't really be proven one way or the other.

I really wanted to respond to this, but based on the terms of the peace treaty, I can't. Speaking of which...

ryanj said...

We are already declaring kat to be in violation of the terms of agreement? Wow,

2. I don't see how kat has violated the terms of the peace treaty i wrote out.

Well, let's see what you wrote:

ryanj said...

With that name, also bring a new attitude and new image of yourself - don't say anything out of negative emotions. Punch a wall or cuss at jimcbrown or smash a keyboard or whatever you need to do to vent, but don't type it on this forum. You have valuable things to say that are relevant to Euphoria, so please moderate yourself.

Also, here's what I wrote in response:

jimcbrown said...

Agreed. I'll be happy to abide by the terms you have laid out if Kat does as well and follows the CodeOfConduct

Rather than simply agreeing to the terms, katsmeow actually withheld her agreement on her first post under that account since 2009 and continued to vent on this forum. In doing so she also violated the first rule of the CodeOfConduct : Be respectful.

ryanj said...

Do we need to be nit-picking over details?

I think this is normal. Differences in interpretation are bound to come up from time to time, and further agreements will need to be hashed out. That's just how the process works.

ryanj said...

can't you cut her some slack, considering she is actually talking about stuff relevant to the topic of this thread?

I already have. I ordered katsmeow to drop a topic, but then others brought it back up on this thread, and I allowed katsmeow to defend herself.

ryanj said...

I would consider this thread to be neutral ground.

I do not. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it, but this is the first time that such a suggestion has been made. Also, I'm not sure how this would work. What are the nit-picky terms for neutral ground? Would katsmeow be allowed to ignore the CodeOfConduct when posting on this thread? Would I be released from my agreement to refrain from publicly stating my opinion on the john1988 matter?

I understand that there is a lot to folow and that you don't have enough time to keep up with everything, but I also feel that it is very important for you to speak up where the terms and conditions of the peace treaty itself are concerned. I really do hope you'll have another post addressing at least some of the concerns that both katsmeow and myself have raised over it.

GreenEuphorian said...

It's really sad that the precious mental resources of the developers have to be wasted on this thread.

Well, maybe you'll feel a little better to realize that it's been kept to a minimum (just myself and ryanj).

GreenEuphorian said...

Some advice for eukat: just drop that username,

I'm of the view that the relevant name has already been dropped.

GreenEuphorian said...

register with a new (neutral) username, and you will have a new life on this forum.

Maybe this is not entirely fair. A new identity also means not getting credit for past contributions.

GreenEuphorian said...

Nobody will discriminate against you

I can't see or deal with everything, but I'll do my best to prevent this from happening to katsmeow regardless. I argue that any form of discrimination is a violation of the CodeOfConduct.

GreenEuphorian said...

you must quit that revengeful attitude and stop complaining about being discriminated against. Can't you do that?

I support this, but I'm also of the view that simply following the terms of ryanj's peace treaty and obeying the CodeOfConduct should be enough.

katsmeow said...

And just watch, i answered you in a level tone of voice, i mentioned no names, and i'll bet my answer gets deleted,

The reason it wasn't deleted is because it was too vague to pinpoint a specific violation on.

If the identity of the individual(s) you speak about was clear, and the charges levelled against them were untrue, then deletion would have been an option. Using a level tone of voice and avoiding naming names would have been no protection.

katsmeow said...

i'll bet ... your question goes unanswered on this forum.

If it helps, I'll offer to cover the losses from this bet.

katsmeow said...

And i did look in #Euphoria on irc to answer you privately before i posted here.

I wish to point out that you do have the option of posting on this forum to ask to bring the conversation to irc. You also have the option of posting on this forum to bring about an email exchange directly.

Another possiblity would be contacting one of the admins (either on the forum or privately) for assistance in exchanging contact details like email addresses outside of the public view. I'm willing to unilaterally promote ryanj to the level of forum moderator or admin so he can facilitate this for you.

After doing so, a good practice might be to have the OP (in this case GE) write a followup post stating that the exchange had been taken privately and resolved there.

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37. Re: Moderation

I don't know what the fuss was about here, but after reading some news groups, I am really glad this forum is moderated.

Shawn

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38. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...
ryanj said...

I keep looking at this thread, thinking about responding to various specific comments, but so many things have been said that i just can't keep up. So, i will just make a few points:

I think this is a shame, but understandable. I think it would have been quite helpful to know what your specific responses to specific comments would have been.

I probably should have, but i was suddenly swamped with work, and coming home after work every day to spend my remaining mental energy on programming projects. Oh well. Jimcbrown, you made some good points in response to my last post. It's good to see some improvements made to the website, and i'm glad katsmeow is back. At this point, i think we should consider this resolved and move on to talking about Euphoria 4.1. grin

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39. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...
jimcbrown said...
ryanj said...

I keep looking at this thread, thinking about responding to various specific comments, but so many things have been said that i just can't keep up. So, i will just make a few points:

I think this is a shame, but understandable. I think it would have been quite helpful to know what your specific responses to specific comments would have been.

I probably should have, but i was suddenly swamped with work, and coming home after work every day to spend my remaining mental energy on programming projects. Oh well. Jimcbrown, you made some good points in response to my last post. It's good to see some improvements made to the website, and i'm glad katsmeow is back. At this point, i think we should consider this resolved and move on to talking about Euphoria 4.1. grin

Seconded.

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40. Re: Moderation

Simply put,
if anyone constructs a post containing the "I said, you said" type, please don't hit the "post" button,
take the issue off forum if at all possible. Surely this self-moderation is not difficult!
Also, if someone has a problem with the local gun laws, wheelchair difficulties, the neighbors dog etc etc, sorry but it has nothing to do with Euphoria.
Whoever gets the last word in isn't necessarily the argument winner anyway, IMHO..
Speaking from 20+ years marriage experience ;)

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41. Re: Moderation

andi49 said...
jimcbrown said...
mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

I'm fine with that. It was just quick & dirty and I missed that. Where would you like the links to go?

I'd think a "recently deleted" link that goes to that view you mentioned. And then when you click on the posts in that view, you see the post instead of the error page for looking at a deleted post.

Done.

mattlewis said...
jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

No, I don't think it should be that prominent. Something like the Misc Menu.

Done.

ghaberek said...
jimcbrown said...

Ok. Do we need a top-level link somewhere, like the Homepage or the Wiki Home?

I'm coming in a little late on this conversation, but, could this be an additional "Deleted" checkbox on the Recent page? It could be unchecked by default.

I'll work on this, but it's a little harder to do.

Sorry to disturb, but i do not think that this links should be public (to each and everyone and to all the robots).

Maybe they should only be available to logged in users.

Just my point of view.

Andreas

I agree with Andreas. I think Deleted Posts and Posts Awaiting moderation should only be visible to logged-in users. Can the Misc menu be different depending on a viewer's permissions?

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42. Re: Moderation

ryanj said...

I agree with Andreas. I think Deleted Posts and Posts Awaiting moderation should only be visible to logged-in users.

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126320.wc

ryanj said...

Can the Misc menu be different depending on a viewer's permissions?

Right now it isn't, but that is doable. Currently, the general public can see the links, but accessing them will just bring up an error page.

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43. Re: Moderation

IF "useless" IS the woman I guess she is

ANYBODY blocking her or her posts is the utter enemy
of 'Open-Euphoria' itself
.
Her skills are NEEDED here and believe me,
I know what I am talking about, because, without bragging,
as it was a gift I got when I was born
My IQ is WAY OVER 160 and I will put ALL of MY knowledge at her personal disposal if she wants me to do so.

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44. Re: Moderation

Ekhnat0n said...

IF "useless" IS the woman I guess she is

ANYBODY blocking her or her posts is the utter enemy
of 'Open-Euphoria' itself
.

I think no one is listening to us, Ekhnat0n. The interactions are more about control, not about improving Euphoria. Closest analog is the Cassandra curse.

Kat

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45. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...

I think no one is listening to us, Ekhnat0n. The interactions are more about control, not about improving Euphoria. Closest analog is the Cassandra curse.

Kat



Dear friend, IF I am allowed to call you my friend,

We currently are a a Hecatan-crossing, if you get my drift, AND WE WILL PREVAIL as has been revealed to me by somebody even more intelligent than I am, who calls himself The Teacher and who has asked my humble person to be his Voice on the Internet, as he wishes to remain anonymous as you will understand

ekhnaton aka nyellorion aka Antoine

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46. Re: Moderation

Ekhnat0n said...

... ANYBODY blocking her or her posts is the utter enemy
of 'Open-Euphoria' itself
.

+1

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47. Re: Moderation

Ekhnat0n said...
katsmeow said...

I think no one is listening to us, Ekhnat0n. The interactions are more about control, not about improving Euphoria. Closest analog is the Cassandra curse.

Kat



Dear friend, IF I am allowed to call you my friend,

We currently are a a Hecatan-crossing, if you get my drift, AND WE WILL PREVAIL as has been revealed to me by somebody even more intelligent than I am, who calls himself The Teacher and who has asked my humble person to be his Voice on the Internet, as he wishes to remain anonymous as you will understand

ekhnaton aka nyellorion aka Antoine

At least cargoan is supporting us most useful "useless" ;)

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48. Re: Moderation

Ekhnat0n said...

At least cargoan is supporting us most useful "useless" ;)

And, i am again being threatened with censure on another thread.

It's a lost cause. There's no end to the wonderful reasons to not improve OE. The fallout of not even keeping up with other languages since the 1980's is widely accepted.

useless

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49. Re: Moderation

katsmeow said...
Ekhnat0n said...

At least cargoan is supporting us most useful "useless" ;)

And, i am again being threatened with censure on another thread.

It's a lost cause. There's no end to the wonderful reasons to not improve OE. The fallout of not even keeping up with other languages since the 1980's is widely accepted.

eukat

Please take the venting offline. (Or at least, off of the forum.) Further posts to vent on the forum will ... well, you know the drill.

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50. Re: Moderation

@jimbrown:

I will do so, Jim, as I am CURRENTLY writing to katsmeow/useless on her private email ALREADY
BUT
I will leave myself as well, joining forces WITH her AGAINST "controlled environments",
just WEEKS after rejoining the community of Eu
if this is the way Open????Euphoria works.
I have found cooperative programmers in the Dutch Ubuntu(*nux) community already
in just 4 weeks after joining them.
The choice is to the community as a whole I suppose
So let's have a vote or poll
to decide what way to proceed

Antoine

BTW
What happened to
Good Faith
Collaborative
Concise and
O*P*E*N?????
In the rules of conduct???

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51. Re: Moderation

Ekhnat0n said...

@jimbrown:

I will do so, Jim, as I am CURRENTLY writing to katsmeow/useless on her private email ALREADY
BUT

Thank you for taking it off the forum.

Ekhnat0n said...

I will leave myself as well, joining forces WITH her AGAINST "controlled environments",
just WEEKS after rejoining the community of Eu

I did not realize that katsmeow was leaving.

Anyways, I respect your choice. The forum will still be here if you ever change your mind.

I admit that I do find this highly ironic, considering it was not that long ago that you were asking for katsmeow to be banned: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126122.wc

Ekhnat0n said...


if this is the way Open????Euphoria works.


The choice is to the community as a whole I suppose
So let's have a vote or poll
to decide what way to proceed

Antoine

We already had one: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/124711.wc

Ekhnat0n said...

I have found cooperative programmers in the Dutch Ubuntu(*nux) community already
in just 4 weeks after joining them.

Seems like we're in good company: http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct

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52. Re: Moderation

@jimbrown

said...


Anyways, I respect your choice. The forum will still be here if you ever change your mind.



I don't think I, for one, will EVER change my mind
on this matter AFTER 46 years of programming experience from CPM on till now
and creating an algorhythm in the days of Windows 3.11
that did exactly the same thing with TSR, Windows did in those days,
SINGLEHANDEDLY in 24 hrs in 86asm
(I called it MegaPod and still have the floppy of it)
after my 3rd almost death by asthma
like happened between sept 26 thru 28 2014
after the 5th time in my life
and found back THAT very Inspiration like in those days


BTW I am Dutch and back in the 15th and 16th Century
WAY UNDER 1,000,000 of us clog-wearing stubborn men
became world-leaders in almost any field
against the numeric overpowering cooperation
of France, Spain and The Commonwealth
AND conquered the seven seas as few as we were.
The ghost of the Flying Dutchman
is said to even now sail the oceans.
MAYBE even the Euphorian one blink

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53. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

I admit that I do find this highly ironic, considering it was not that long ago that you were asking for katsmeow to be banned: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126122.wc

Oh, gawd. This is hilariously ironic. Thanks for the laughter at the start of my day.

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54. Re: Moderation

Jim, I seriously believe that no one should be banned as such. Instead we could require that, once the forum categories/sections are implemented (as per current plans), people with weird posts be restricted to a FreeTalk section (unmoderated posts, off-topic posts, hilarious contents, cranks, etc).

By setting an option, each user will be given the choice to automatically filter out all posts belonging to that category. This way wveryone will be happy, hopefully. Serious programmers will no longer be disturbed by cranks.

Another solution could be a censorship system at the user's level: each user will be able to ban any given poster from his view. I may dislike a person's posts but this does not mean that they must be unacceptable to everyone. If I get to filter them out at the individual level, this would instantly solve the problem.

Cheers,

Green Euphorian

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55. Re: Moderation

GreenEuphorian said...

Another solution could be a censorship system at the user's level: each user will be able to ban any given poster from his view.

+1. "Greyed" or "+ to show" would be even better.

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56. Re: Moderation

ChrisB said...

crylex at gmail dot com

This morning i sent email to Tom, ChrisB, and others, concerning something about moderation that i'd rather not discuss in public. What is a proper waiting time for a reply? Can someone put the proper wait time on the "Contact Admin" page, and button to it in the forum somewhere? Thanks.

Kat

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57. Re: Moderation

GreenEuphorian said...

Jim, I seriously believe that no one should be banned as such.

No one was banned as such. So, we don't have a problem here?

GreenEuphorian said...

Instead we could require that, once the forum categories/sections are implemented (as per current plans), people with weird posts be restricted to a FreeTalk section (unmoderated posts, off-topic posts, hilarious contents, cranks, etc).

By setting an option, each user will be given the choice to automatically filter out all posts belonging to that category. This way wveryone will be happy, hopefully. Serious programmers will no longer be disturbed by cranks.

This was proposed in the past and rejected. (If we want to name names, mattlewis is the one who keeps rejecting the concept of splitting the forum into two or more.)

GreenEuphorian said...

Another solution could be a censorship system at the user's level: each user will be able to ban any given poster from his view. I may dislike a person's posts but this does not mean that they must be unacceptable to everyone. If I get to filter them out at the individual level, this would instantly solve the problem.

This is a good idea. I think some global moderation would still be necessary though - we wouldn't want the forum database to fill up with advertising spam, for example.

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58. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

This was proposed in the past and rejected. (If we want to name names, mattlewis is the one who keeps rejecting the concept of splitting the forum into two or more.)

I guess I'm just nostalgic for the old listserv days. Also, this place hasn't usually been terribly high volume, so a single stream of messages has worked well enough, from my point of view. If a lot of people really want to go that route, I'll go along.

Matt

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59. Re: Moderation

Just wondering and asking myself time and again:

CBensler RU scooby from the IRC-channel??
Do you remember ekhnaton (from back in 2003/4),

That's me.

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60. Re: Moderation

I have made edits and deletions to the thread at http://openeuphoria.org/forum/127205.wc consistent with the CodeOfConduct policy.

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61. Re: Moderation

jimcbrown said...

I have made edits and deletions to the thread at http://openeuphoria.org/forum/127205.wc consistent with the CodeOfConduct policy.

Naturally.

useless

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62. Re: http.e feature

In response to posted by eukat on Mar 07, 2014 12:42:51,

eukat said...

Since no one has posted here in 3 days, i thought i'd start a new fight....

In http.e, there exists this code:

object has_data = sock:select(sock, {}, {}, timeout) 
if (length(has_data[1]) > 2) and equal(has_data[1][2],1) then 
   object data = sock:receive(sock, 0) 

It has always bothered me that sock:select is using the timeout, and that http.e isn't task-aware bothers me. These two deficencies mess up the speed and responsiveness of Euphoria. The tiny app news.ex runs much better if those lines are changed as follows:

object has_data = sock:select(sock, {}, {}, 0,0) 
if (length(has_data[1]) > 2) and not equal(has_data[1][2],1) -- if not readable 
  then 
       task_yield() 
       -- pgm flow then falls to the bottom of while time()... 
  else 
       object data = sock:receive(sock,0) 

You are still using a timeout, you just changed it from 15 milliseconds to zero milliseconds. It does make a certain amount of sense to do this so that if a 3rd party library uses a very long timeout in its http request, other tasks aren't held up for unreasonable periods of time. But a bad 3rd party library can do so anyways simply by calling select() directly on a socket. Once multithread support is implemented, this issue (and tasks generally) should become irrelevant.

Also, a timeout of zero will busy loop (using 100% cpu) on single task programs. Ideally, we'd fix the select machine func itself to be task aware and do the right thing depending on the # of tasks, but that's a huge change. Alternatively, we could implement a new builtin - get_num_of_waiting_tasks() or something, then execute_request() could decide if it should wait by yeilding to other tasks or if it should tell select() to wait.

I think this doesn't get most of the error cases. We might try to receive data if there's an error. This is better:

if (length(has_data[1]) > 2) and equal(has_data[1][2],1) 
  then 
       object data = sock:receive(sock,0) 
       ... 
  else -- if not readable 
       task_yield() 
       -- pgm flow then falls to the bottom of while time()... 
eukat said...

Responsibility for keeping this code up was taken from me the day after it was handed to me (years ago),

It did not all happen in a single day or two. Your "responsibility" ended after you quit the dev team. If you had never been parted from the dev team (or if you had later rejoined) the "responsibility" (the ability to directly edit this file I guess) would be yours right now.

eukat said...

when someone else completely re-wrote http.e right out from under me,

This happens all the time in FOSS. It happens quite often in commercial software as well.

eukat said...

but i am just letting you know, you are still doing it wrong.

You are doing it wrong as well.

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63. Re: Moderation

In response to http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126405.wc :

Steady said...

The level of your knowledge, Mr. Jim Brown is very clear for everybody to see.

Agreed.

Steady said...

Regarding your statement about Code of conduct:
I am aware of your propensity to use your powers as admin or Moderator (or whatever you are) to cut out or edit conversation that attempts to correct your mistakes.

I do not do this. I admit my mistakes, and do so publically.

E.g.

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126396.wc

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/126066.wc

http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/124360.wc

Steady said...

That helps neither you nor the person to who advise was being given.

I agree that such behavior would help neither party, which is why I do not engage in it.

Steady said...

I have noticed your use of these powers against others in this forum,

I have used my powers only in accordance with the CodeOfConduct, and otherwise to fulfill individual user's requests (such as when a user requests to be banned from the forum). Otherwise, I generally do not have any occasion to use my powers at all.

Steady said...

and I have noticed similar Admin attitude in other forums,

I can not speak for those other forums, but I have no such attitude here.

Steady said...

where the BIG CHIEF feels threatened.

At least at the time of your post, I was not the "BIG CHIEF" or even the top-most admin.

Steady said...

I am about 10 times more knowledgeable than you are about hardware and things like boot software,

I feel that this is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. So go and prove it.

Steady said...

and no amount of sketchy reading on your part is going to alter your level of knowledge that actually doing it yourself.

I assume you meant to type this.

Steady said...

and no amount of sketchy reading on your part is going to alter your level of knowledge *than* actually doing it yourself.

Alas, I have had to do it myself, and thus have considerable experience in this area. But I think that goes back to the begining of this post:

Steady said...

The level of your knowledge, Mr. Jim Brown is very clear for everybody to see.

Agreed.

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64. Re: Moderation

In response to http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/130049.wc :

Mike777b said...

And I would be deeply saddened if Andreas' quick defense of my post and any responses to his post were to somehow impact his most valuable input, which I greatly appreciate.

There is now an appearance that this is indeed the case. (Though I secretly harbor different suspicions.)

andi49 last logged in at Jul 12, 2016 18:22:58 EDT (before any responses to his post were made).

However, he appears to be reading posts from another forum account, as I received an email from his registered email address asking to remove his account.

Mike777b said...

It is no secret that the number of active participants has diminished and that OE would be better served if the numbers were incremented.

One thing I've noticed with the email validation is that, when the new forum went up back in 2008, there were a lot of accounts with fake email addresses created. I haven't counted, but it feels like we have had far more forum accounts back then than we did participants in the Topica email list.

Some of these accounts became very active participants. Many of the later performed actions which today would violate the CodeOfConduct.

Adopting and enforcing the CodeOfConduct got rid of the worst violators though, and adopting the current email validation system also stopped most of those fake forum accounts. The owner of which made no attempt to reregister them, except for a small handful.

Do you know what really caused the forum to go quiet? When I contacted one of these accounts and asked the owner about the owner's real identity. Suddenly forum activity dropped. It's stayed low ever since.

While I agree with the sentiment that it'd be great to have more users join this forum, if I had to choose I'd pick the small, low-volume/low-activity forum over a large and noisy forum that was mostly full of insults, personal attacks, and other messages of the same type.

I feel that andi49's account has fit into a certain pattern here - a friendly and helpful user who at first posts useful information, then goes on to post some minor controversial stuff/minor criticisms and ignores the responses, then goes on to an uncharacteristic post majorly insulting someone. This isn't the first time that something like this has happened, but it appears that these attacks are getting more and more elaborate.

However, they are also coming in more infrequently. I imagine it's getting harder to do these kind of things on this forum. So I think we should stay the course - the evidence suggests that the current approach to this kind of behavior is indeed working.

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65. Re: The Future of Euphoria

And jimcbrown has resumed deleting my posts.

useless

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66. Re: The Future of Euphoria

katsmeow said...

And jimcbrown has resumed deleting my posts.

useless

What value do you think you add to the forum with your off-topic posts?

(Edited by jimcbrown: Following CodeOfConduct rule: Be Respectful.)

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