1. Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ryanj Dec 05, 2014
- 3483 views
I understand the development team is overworked and not paid at all, and is probably busy with real life, but...what is the status of 4.1? It would be really great if someone could summarize the improvements that have been made over 4.0.5 and what needs to be finished before the final release. I think it is really important to at least communicate with the community once in awhile. Those of us who check this site often understand development is slow, for valid reasons, but it is still good to take 30 minutes to write an update once in a while... PLEASE!
Development has been so slow that i honestly can't even remember what the difference is between 4.0.5 and 4.1 beta, or when i tried various builds. Normally, a "development" release can be used for awhile and then it becomes "stable", but this 4.1 beta has been taking so long that it is getting to the point where i feel like i don't know what version to use. I have been spending a couple years developing some software (proprietary stuff for work that has to be commercial-quality, not just open-source hobby stuff, not sofware that is sold, but software that is a utility for our hardware products), thinking that 4.1 final would have all the bugs fixed by the time my projects are released to the public, but it is taking so long that i may have to go through the hassle of trying to revert back to 4.0.5 just to get basic stuff working, like run-time error reports that don't die before generating an ex.err and actually being able to bind an exe with an icon. It is really discouraging that basic stuff doesn't work! Dev team, please don't let your ~2 years go to waste because you couldn't finish the last 5%!
If business goes well, and our products sell enough to make a decent profit, i am totally willing to invest at least a few thousands dollars in the development of Euphoria (probably some sort of "bounty" system to encourage specific features to be worked on), because i really believe it is worth it. But, at the moment, i'm stuck working really hard not making much money right now, hoping it will pay of in the long run.
I see _tom is doing news updates (Thanks, tom! By the way, perhaps you could say a little about yourself on your wiki page) And people are working on various GUI and editor projects and stuff. But i feel like we are really lacking updates from the people who actually work on the Euphoria source code! That is, if anyone is even working on it...
Some things that could be clarified:
- What is going on with the 151-something open tickets? How many of these are valid, and how many just need to be closed?
- What known bugs are being worked on?
- What developers are even planning on doing more work, and when?
- What areas need more help from other people who could step up and work on stuff?
- Why is 4.1 beta stalled? What needs to be done to finalize 4.1?
- Why should we even care about 4.1? Why is it potentially better than 4.0.5? What improvements have been made?
Please, try to answer some of these questions, so the community can have an idea of what is going on! It's fine if it takes another year or two to finish 4.1....we just need an update of what's going on!
2. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by GreenEuphorian Dec 08, 2014
- 3391 views
All valid questions.
The part of the post that I liked best is:
If business goes well, and our products sell enough to make a decent profit, i am totally willing to invest at least a few thousands dollars in the development of Euphoria (probably some sort of "bounty" system to encourage specific features to be worked on)
3. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by _tom (admin) Dec 10, 2014
- 3335 views
By the way, perhaps you could say a little about yourself
My background is Engineering Science and Chemical Engineering; not much programming other than using a computer as a number crunching tool.
As I find odd moments of time I am working on the documentation...expect progress in a year or two :)
So, sorry I can't help you with Euphoria itself.
_tom
4. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by User89 Dec 11, 2014
- 3265 views
Maybe the main devs finally figured out that a language with only 3 base types (integer, float, sequence) is not simple, but primitive and archaic. This whole language is a bad joke and most people left the language for Ruby/Python/Lua already. And for lots of good reasons.
5. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) Dec 12, 2014
- 3224 views
Maybe the main devs finally figured out that a language with only 3 base types (integer, float, sequence) is not simple, but primitive and archaic. This whole language is a bad joke and most people left the language for Ruby/Python/Lua already. And for lots of good reasons.
LOL ... yeah, right.
6. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by _tom (admin) Dec 12, 2014
- 3245 views
Evidently you have, just enough, interest in Euphoria to post a comment. For this I thank you because apathy is much worse.
Maybe the main devs finally figured out that a language with only 3 base types
Actually two base types: atom and sequence. Or, one base type: object.
not simple, but primitive and archaic.
Primitive, simple, and crude--is that a bad thing? Why be fancy and fashionable when a simple solution works? It all comes down to knowing when to use the proper tool to solve a given problem.
Archaic--imperative programming languages were developed very early in language history because they were easy to implement and easy to understand. The bonus is that imperative languages execute code faster than more modern languages.
This whole language is a bad joke
You have to be specific. You sense of humour may not correspond to my sense of humour.
most people left the language for Ruby/Python/Lua already.
Who are these "most people"?
There is a benefit to learning one or all of these languages in addition to learning Euphoria.
And for lots of good reasons.
What are they? You have to be specific.
If you are willing to teach me something then I am willing to enter a dialog.
_tom
7. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) Dec 12, 2014
- 3202 views
Maybe the main devs finally figured out that a language with only 3 base types (integer, float, sequence) is not simple, but primitive and archaic. This whole language is a bad joke and most people left the language for Ruby/Python/Lua already. And for lots of good reasons.
With the risk of being oxymoronic - Troll, to be ignored.
Chris
8. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by irv Dec 12, 2014
- 3193 views
I can fly an airplane. It has many dozens of controls. My car only has 3 - gas, brakes, and steering wheel.
For some reason, I usually drive my car to work.
Funny how that is.
9. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) Dec 12, 2014
- 3207 views
I can fly an airplane. It has many dozens of controls. My car only has 3 - gas, brakes, and steering wheel.
For some reason, I usually drive my car to work.
Funny how that is.
I am playing devil's advocate here, but I prefer to drive a car with a couple more controls - a clutch and shifter - because I believe it provides me additional manual control over the vehicle, which I prefer to have. But not everyone feels the same way. It's clunky or confusing or just "too much". Some folks might even prefer to build their own car. Or take the bus. Or ride a bike. Or maybe just walk. We all have our own preferences and we're free to do what we like.
Maybe the main devs finally figured out that a language with only 3 base types (integer, float, sequence) is not simple, but primitive and archaic. This whole language is a bad joke and most people left the language for Ruby/Python/Lua already. And for lots of good reasons.
Belittling another person's choice in anything is at the very least impolite. It's also childish and unprofessional and rude. Don't be rude. Especially not here. We're not rude. I recommend you read this recent blog post from Philip Guo, Assistant Professor of Computer Science at University of Rochester. He knows a thing or two about programming. And we could all learn to be a little more open-minded once in a while.
-Greg
10. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ryanj Dec 12, 2014
- 3129 views
This whole conversation is hilarious! That just made my day. 
11. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by jmduro Dec 14, 2014
- 2880 views
I am playing devil's advocate here, but I prefer to drive a car with a couple more controls - a clutch and shifter - because I believe it provides me additional manual control over the vehicle, which I prefer to have. But not everyone feels the same way. It's clunky or confusing or just "too much". Some folks might even prefer to build their own car. Or take the bus. Or ride a bike. Or maybe just walk. We all have our own preferences and we're free to do what we like.
Euphoria 3 is a good example of the KISS philosophy (Keep It Simple ...) and that's why I love it. I can test a new idea within minutes.
OpenEuphoria 4 is great because it standardizes a lot of additional libraries missing in Euphoria 3 core libraries, but now there are many ways to reach the same result with different functions because some of them are close: that is confusing. More is better until it gets confusing.
Why not keep the core simple and move extra to another folder? Maybe standardized extra but extra.
Belittling another person's choice in anything is at the very least impolite. It's also childish and unprofessional and rude. Don't be rude. Especially not here. We're not rude.
I totally agree. There are only nice people writing here and that's why I try to contribute my way.
Best Regards
Jean-Marc
12. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by GreenEuphorian Dec 14, 2014
- 2813 views
OpenEuphoria 4 is great because it standardizes a lot of additional libraries missing in Euphoria 3 core libraries, but now there are many ways to reach the same result with different functions because some of them are close: that is confusing. More is better until it gets confusing.
Why not keep the core simple and move extra to another folder? Maybe standardized extra but extra.
It sounds reasonable. However, this and the other suggestions are mostly likely to be simply ignored. From what it appears, there are not enough resources to make Euphoria as great as we would like it to become.
13. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ne1uno Dec 14, 2014
- 2777 views
OpenEuphoria 4 is great because it standardizes a lot of additional libraries missing in Euphoria 3 core libraries, but now there are many ways to reach the same result with different functions because some of them are close: that is confusing. More is better until it gets confusing.
Why not keep the core simple and move extra to another folder? Maybe standardized extra but extra.
It sounds reasonable. However, this and the other suggestions are mostly likely to be simply ignored. From what it appears, there are not enough resources to make Euphoria as great as we would like it to become.
that's not really fair, the dev's set up the include files for just exactly this reason with the new 4.0 includes in the std directory so you could include the updated but 3.x compatible includes in the include directory. fully 4.x programs all the includes should be using the std/ includes. if you wanted to only use the 3.x includes you can still do that using 4.0 executable. except for the new keywords, most older programs will run mostly unchanged. it's been years for most euphorians to worry about 3.x compatibility except when someone brings it up on the forum.
most of our computers are 100 or 1000 times faster than 10 years ago for most people so worrying about an extra 20 seconds of startup time is not really that relevant. and I do still us old computers and old OS.
14. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by petelomax Dec 14, 2014
- 2773 views
most of our computers are 100 or 1000 times faster than 10 years ago for most people so worrying about an extra 20 seconds of startup time is not really that relevant.
Huh-uh-uh-ha. That just sums it up perfectly!
It is quite true to say that my computer is at least 10 times faster than the one before the one it replaced, but even if it really was 1000 times faster, in precisely what universe does that make an extra 20 seconds any faster?!!
Tickled pink and giggling uncontrollably,
Pete
15. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by Shian_Lee Dec 23, 2014
- 2600 views
Maybe the main devs finally figured out that a language with only 3 base types (integer, float, sequence) is not simple, but primitive and archaic. This whole language is a bad joke and most people left the language for Ruby/Python/Lua already. And for lots of good reasons.
I disagree with this.
Euphoria can be learned in a single day; and you can become very productive with Euphoria in a single week. The power and simplicity of Euphoria is amazing and unique.
Although Python is very successful, Euphoria has much more potential in my opinion. Euphoria simply don't have enough resources - money, programmers, time, etc; Maybe people are not ready yet to accept the fact that programming can be fun and easy.
16. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by User89 Dec 24, 2014
- 2547 views
Yeah "productive" when you never used anything else to compare it with.
And why is that? I cannot see a single reason for such claims.
Yeah, like the guy who tried it again recently only to find out that not even "Pass by reference" is supported. So much fun and "easy"! Or the other guy who wrote a UI toolkit which has 64bit issues out of the box because the language offers the worst FFI in the history of mankind. Have fun with peeking and pokeing at manually determined struct offsets. "Programming can be fun and easy". In Euphoria? LOL, you made my day.
17. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 24, 2014
- 2539 views
Yeah, like the guy who tried it again recently only to find out that not even "Pass by reference" is supported.
Read again. It is supported (in the stdlib): http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/125769.wc
So much fun and "easy"!
Though Derek has a point when he implies that PBR is neither fun nor easy: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/125774.wc
because the language offers the worst FFI in the history of mankind.
The foreign function interface (dll.e et al) is designed to make it somewhat easy to interface with custom C libraries on your own. Compare with CPython where you have to write an extensive wrapper in C to create a new Python module.
Have fun with peeking and pokeing at manually determined struct offsets.
A valid point, but this is on the TODO list.
In fact, if you don't mind pre-alpha, you can have a taste of a different way today: http://scm.openeuphoria.org/hg/euphoria/shortlog/f0054b3a8f8b
Or the other guy who wrote a UI toolkit which has 64bit issues out of the box
You mean http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/125800.wc ?
Converting anything low level from 32bit to 64bit is hard. Euphoria 4.1.0 beta already provides new methods to make this transparent (such as peek_pointer() and sizeof() ), so I wouldn't blame this on the FFI. There is a lot of code in the archives that assumes a 32bit world, unfortunately.
Yeah "productive" when you never used anything else to compare it with.
I think you'd be very hard pressed to make the case that Euphoria is less productive than, e.g., C or gasm.
"Programming can be fun and easy". In Euphoria? LOL, you made my day.
Of course. Every tool has its ups and downs. While Euphoria is not perfect, I profess a belief that it has good things about it that make it fun to use.
18. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by irv Dec 24, 2014
- 2531 views
LOL, you made my day.
Seems you are easily amused, and easily confused as well.
Let me help you: anyone who doesn't like Euphoria is NOT required to use it.
Pretty simple, really.
19. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by User90 Dec 24, 2014
- 2522 views
LOL, you made my day.
Seems you are easily amused, and easily confused as well.
Let me help you: anyone who doesn't like Euphoria is NOT required to use it.
Pretty simple, really.
Of course, but then you shouldn't wonder why nobody uses your crap.
20. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by User90 Dec 24, 2014
- 2571 views
The foreign function interface (dll.e et al) is designed to make it somewhat easy to interface with custom C libraries on your own. Compare with CPython where you have to write an extensive wrapper in C to create a new Python module.
So you don't know about e.g. http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2013/03/09/python-ffi-with-ctypes-and-cffi/. Can't say I'm surprised.
Of course. Every tool has its ups and downs. While Euphoria is not perfect, I profess a belief that it has good things about it that make it fun to use.
Yeah, when you have no arguments, you must profess religious beliefs.
21. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by cargoan Dec 24, 2014
- 2499 views
"Of course, but then you shouldn't wonder why nobody uses your crap."
I use it ... and I keep using it... since v1.4... and I'm delighted.
22. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) Dec 24, 2014
- 2495 views
Yeah, like the guy who tried it again recently only to find out that not even "Pass by reference" is supported. So much fun and "easy"! Or the other guy who wrote a UI toolkit which has 64bit issues out of the box because the language offers the worst FFI in the history of mankind. Have fun with peeking and pokeing at manually determined struct offsets. "Programming can be fun and easy". In Euphoria? LOL, you made my day.
Didn't I ask that you not be rude?
Belittling another person's choice in anything is at the very least impolite. It's also childish and unprofessional and rude. Don't be rude.
Yep, there it is.
Of course, but then you shouldn't wonder why nobody uses your crap.
I don't recall anyone expressing this concern. No one here is staying up all night pining over what Euphoria "could be."
If the question is, "How do we get more people to use Euphoria?" then the answer is, "Improve the language."
So if you don't like the language, you have two options here:
- Help.
- Leave.
-Greg
23. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 24, 2014
- 2532 views
The foreign function interface (dll.e et al) is designed to make it somewhat easy to interface with custom C libraries on your own. Compare with CPython where you have to write an extensive wrapper in C to create a new Python module.
So you don't know about e.g. http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2013/03/09/python-ffi-with-ctypes-and-cffi/. Can't say I'm surprised.
I look forward to seeing this when it makes it into Python's stdlib. But until then....
Yeah, when you have no arguments, you must profess religious beliefs.
Of course, but then you shouldn't wonder why nobody uses your crap.
These statements are code of conduct violations. It's one thing to complain about the language, but insulting individual members in this way is not going to be tolerated.
24. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 24, 2014
- 2533 views
The foreign function interface (dll.e et al) is designed to make it somewhat easy to interface with custom C libraries on your own. Compare with CPython where you have to write an extensive wrapper in C to create a new Python module.
So you don't know about e.g. http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2013/03/09/python-ffi-with-ctypes-and-cffi/. Can't say I'm surprised.
I look forward to seeing this when it makes it into Python's stdlib. But until then....
It's not perfect, either. From the article:
While libffi is quite powerful, it also has some limitations, which by extension apply to ctypes. For example, passing unions by value to dynamically-loaded functions is not supported. But overall, the benefits outweigh the limitations, which are not hard to work around when needed.
More details at http://bugs.python.org/issue16575
Euphoria's FFI has similar limitations. Nothing's perfect, I guess.
25. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ryanj Dec 24, 2014
- 2468 views
Or the other guy who wrote a UI toolkit which has 64bit issues out of the box
You mean http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/125800.wc ?
Converting anything low level from 32bit to 64bit is hard. Euphoria 4.1.0 beta already provides new methods to make this transparent (such as peek_pointer() and sizeof() ), so I wouldn't blame this on the FFI. There is a lot of code in the archives that assumes a 32bit world, unfortunately.
The 64bit failure was my fault, not the fault of Euphoria. I simply never worked on 64bit support because it is an alpha version.
26. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by ryanj Dec 24, 2014
- 2442 views
Ok...so... i still haven't seen an answer to my question. There has been trolling and reaction to trolling, which was mildly entertaining, but, can we get back to the original topic, please? Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
27. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by Shian_Lee Dec 25, 2014
- 2397 views
Ok...so... i still haven't seen an answer to my question. There has been trolling and reaction to trolling, which was mildly entertaining, but, can we get back to the original topic, please? Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
I agree.
Sorry ryanj, one more reply please to User89:
1. User89, I believe that you really like Euphoria, and that you are simply disappointed and frustrated that the development process slowed down. Otherwise, you wouldn't bother to sign-up to this forum.
2. I think that Euphoria is more readable, maintainable, intuitive and advanced then Python. Standard libraries and support for other languages and 64-bit are useful extensions that should be developed. But the basic concepts of Euphoria are much more simple and powerful then Python - and it makes Euphoria incredibly easy to use.
3. If you, User89, are talented and brave, then don't hesitate to join the development team. Euphoria needs programmers and support.
4. I think that those who criticise Euphoria, are simply jealous. Yes, it's true that it takes 100 lines of Visual-Basic code to do much less of what 5 lines of Euphoria code can do - and this cause irrational jealousy.
5. Finally User89, I hope that you'll join the development team and leave your doubts and fears behind.
Thank you, and I'm also looking forward for more answers to Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?.
28. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by SDPringle Dec 27, 2014
- 2287 views
I can only speak for myself at the moment, but I have more demands on my time now than before than when I first proposed to become a developer of Euphoria itself. I have learned a lot from the development team and the exercise of working with the group.
That being said, like another people, I need to earn a living. Instead of working on Euphoria time is directed into some activity that might earn money. I don't get a dime from that donations button here in OpenEuphoria. It does pay for hosting though.
So, I will be able to justify work on Euphoria, if I get some donations. If you want me to work on OpenEuphoria's Euphoria send your bitcoin fractions to 1Fb3V8Wvm94VbSbz7pat4LB5hWoyAww2mn. If you want me to work on Euphoria AL, send your bitcoin fractions to 1CuAquzjtk6xoyzsnwogyRZ291UNwsLuvN (or donate using the buttons at http://canada.host-ed.me/al/). Even if it is one dollar worth of a faction of a bitcoin, I will appreciate it. I will work on one of the tickets here to get both Euphoria AL fixed. There are two issues that are important.
S. Pringle
29. Re: Euphoria 4.1 status? Dev team, what's going on?
- Posted by Shian_Lee Jan 03, 2015
- 2169 views
I can only speak for myself at the moment, but I have more demands on my time now than before than when I first proposed to become a developer of Euphoria itself. I have learned a lot from the development team and the exercise of working with the group.
That being said, like another people, I need to earn a living. Instead of working on Euphoria time is directed into some activity that might earn money. I don't get a dime from that donations button here in OpenEuphoria. It does pay for hosting though.
Thank you.
Now the situation is clear.
