1. deleted posts

The person is using a scheme where it appears to me like the post is still there, but none of you can see it.

useless

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2. Re: deleted posts

john1988 said...

The person is using a scheme where it appears to me like the post is still there, but none of you can see it.

Actually, this system is designed to be as transparent as possible. To allow the concerned members of the public to openly review these decisions, deleted posts show up at http://openeuphoria.org/recently_deleted.wc

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3. Re: deleted posts

jimcbrown said...
john1988 said...

The person is using a scheme where it appears to me like the post is still there, but none of you can see it.

Actually, this system is designed to be as transparent as possible. To allow the concerned members of the public to openly review these decisions, deleted posts show up at http://openeuphoria.org/recently_deleted.wc

Also, some posts will show up at http://openeuphoria.org/recently_awaitingmoderation.wc (however, no post will show up at both places at the same time).

The difference? The latter is the publicly auditable version of the moderation queue, as described (and inspired by) this: http://codex.wordpress.org/Comment_Moderation

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4. Re: deleted posts

So why can you delete anything that shows you in a bad light?

useless

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5. Re: deleted posts

eukat said...

So why can you delete anything that shows you in a bad light?

One of the purposes of making all post deletions publicly auditable is to prevent things like this from occuring.

The community has never set down a formal list of rules, but things like personal attacks, swearing, ad nauseam arguments, etc. can make a post eligible for deletion.

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6. Re: deleted posts

jimcbrown said...
eukat said...

So why can you delete anything that shows you in a bad light?

One of the purposes of making all post deletions publicly auditable is to prevent things like this from occuring.

The community has never set down a formal list of rules, but things like personal attacks, swearing, ad nauseam arguments, etc. can make a post eligible for deletion.

I don't think her post was that bad. It was a little bitter, but I don't see it as an outright personal attack. She was trying to bring up a point about the shortcomings of the search feature on the website and how she had a working archive search feature years ago. Yes, she said it in a bitter way, but is that really worth deleting a post and giving her another reason to feel outcast? She did have some valid points that could have been answered rather than censored.

Kat really does have good ideas, useful skills, and lots of knowledge about technical subjects. I have been chatting with her for years in IRC and she has been a great help to me working on ideas for FluidAE, (and finding mistakes on my website), and she has a lot to contribute to Euphoria.

Kat, I suggest being very careful to word your posts in a way that don't seem so emotionally charged, knowing how easily they get deleted.

Moderator, instead of just deleting kat's posts because she shows bitterness about the past, why can't we have a real discussion about the points she is trying to bring up? Sometimes, it may be better to let people go ahead and read a post and come to their own conclusion.

diplomacy
Skill in dealing with others without causing bad feelings.
graciousness
Characterized by kindness and warm courtesy. Characterized by tact and propriety.

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7. Re: deleted posts

ryanj said...

Moderator, instead of just deleting [some] posts because [of debatable reasons], why can't we have a real discussion about the points [they are] trying to bring up? Sometimes, it may be better to let people go ahead and read a post and come to their own conclusion.

diplomacy
Skill in dealing with others without causing bad feelings.
graciousness
Characterized by kindness and warm courtesy. Characterized by tact and propriety.

I'm supporting Ryan on this one.

As an admin, I've rarely seen the need for me to delete any posts at all. I tend to be more in favour of editing or censoring questionable posts rather than outright deletion.

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8. Re: deleted posts

ryanj said...
jimcbrown said...
eukat said...

So why can you delete anything that shows you in a bad light?

One of the purposes of making all post deletions publicly auditable is to prevent things like this from occuring.

The community has never set down a formal list of rules, but things like personal attacks, swearing, ad nauseam arguments, etc. can make a post eligible for deletion.

I don't think her post was that bad. It was a little bitter, but I don't see it as an outright personal attack.

Some of her posts are much closer to the line, e.g. the logical fallacy of http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/124094.wc (which is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question ).

ryanj said...

She was trying to bring up a point about the shortcomings of the search feature on the website

This was allowed. In it's entirety. http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/124006.wc

ryanj said...

and how she had a working archive search feature years ago. Yes, she said it in a bitter way, but is that really worth deleting a post and giving her another reason to feel outcast? She did have some valid points that could have been answered rather than censored.

That was covered under ad nauseum.

Actually, many years ago, Matt went as far as to offer to host her archive search here, in fact: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/108309.wc

Anyways, Tiggr's archive search was generally positively regarded and well received, even many years later: http://openeuphoria.org/forum/117515.wc#117515

The main issue with these type of posts is that they typically devolve like this:

me: I liked it! 
eukat: No you didn't, you banned it! 
me: I never banned it, I said I liked it, bring it back please! 
eukat: But you banned it! 
me: No, I didn't. 
eukat: Yes, you did! 
me: No! 
eukat: Yes! 

... and so on.

ryanj said...

Kat really does have good ideas, useful skills, and lots of knowledge about technical subjects. I have been chatting with her for years in IRC and she has been a great help to me working on ideas for FluidAE, (and finding mistakes on my website), and she has a lot to contribute to Euphoria.

This was never in disagreement.

ryanj said...

Moderator, instead of just deleting kat's posts because she shows bitterness about the past, why can't we have a real discussion about the points she is trying to bring up?

Between us, on the forum here? That's fine.

With eukat? She seems unable. http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/119347.wc

ryanj said...

Sometimes, it may be better to let people go ahead and read a post and come to their own conclusion.

diplomacy
Skill in dealing with others without causing bad feelings.
graciousness
Characterized by kindness and warm courtesy. Characterized by tact and propriety.
Kat, I suggest being very careful to word your posts in a way that don't seem so emotionally charged, knowing how easily they get deleted.

Agreed. One concern (euphoric raised this) was that the perceived hostility on the forum may have the potential to be scaring away newbie users.

Part of the problem is that eukat doesn't see a problem with dragging unrelated parties into the conversation by making things up.

From http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/123248.wc :

eukat said...

my irc.e was refused, and i even offered it to Ry again last week

From http://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/123036.wc :

eukat said...

Ryan has worked on FAE on and off for many years. I've encouraged a release before it was finished. I believe he's done the right thing in releasing now, and i suggest more demos now. I thought FAE would be just the thing to get me to leave a 32,000 byte dos/basic interpreter environment behind and program for a gigabyte gui operating system, but my last conversations with him in # euphoria ended badly, and he's going to stop short of the next step. I had hoped he could add 10 more lines of code to FAE to make all my dreams come true, and add even more functionality to OOEU-gui-tasks.

DerekParnell said...

As an admin, I've rarely seen the need for me to delete any posts at all.

Same here. eukat is an outlier, but it's very rare for me to delete a post otherwise.

DerekParnell said...

I tend to be more in favour of editing or censoring questionable posts rather than outright deletion.

My issue here is a purely technical one, with regards to peer review and public auditing. Deleting a post automatically saved a public copy that can later be reviewed by others. This is not the case for editing a post.

eukat said...

It's not an ad nauseum point when it's still ongoing.

Actually, that's sort of the definition of an ad nauseum argument - the arguer keeps making the same point ongoingly (over and over), until the others give up.

Thus, I'll only address the novel points in your post.

eukat said...

altho i am the only person who has repeatedly offered code and website help,

Hardly. Lots of people, like irv, _tom, ghaberk, Jerome, etc. have done so.

eukat said...

You still have a bad search engine,

Agreed. That said, we don't seem so bad off when compared to Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=site%3Aopeneuphoria%2Eorg+%60

eukat said...

i have pointed out errors to the site in #Fluidae and they have been corrected,

Fixing the bug in the search engine that you reported is complicated for reasons I've already stated. Which isn't to say that we won't try to fix it, because we will, but it's not a quick fix and fixing it is a lower priority task than getting 4.1.0 out the door.

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9. Re: deleted posts

Whatever happens here, it's a really, really bad external representation.

Maybe some people should think about it, hopefully this Forum is about a 'Programming language' not about someones personal problems.

Andreas
(sorry for this comment, but i can't stand it.)
http://www.heise.de/download/programmierung/compiler-interpreter-50000301187/

Andreas

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