1. Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 20, 2012
- 2161 views
Since at least according to my research, "--" is not standard Creole markup, and because there is in fact no standard Creole markup for strike through, can we change it?
My proposal to change it would be to keep "--" for Euphoria comments and for em-dash, which people use it for in conversation, and to use "~--" for strike through. Alternatively use <s> and </s> for strike through.
Or maybe we should just remember to enclose our entire posts in {{{ }}}.
2. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 20, 2012
- 2152 views
Since at least according to my research, "--" is not standard Creole markup, and because there is in fact no standard Creole markup for strike through, can we change it?
My proposal to change it would be to keep "--" for Euphoria comments and for em-dash, which people use it for in conversation, and to use "~--" for strike through. Alternatively use <s> and </s> for strike through.
Or maybe we should just remember to enclose our entire posts in {{{ }}}.
I feel that this should be a feature request in the Creole ticket forum http://openeuphoria.org/ticket/index.wc?product_id=3
But I agree - if em-dash is not standard creole markup, then we should change it.
3. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 20, 2012
- 2210 views
It is used in other forms of wiki markup, but there is no standard from what I can see.
http://www.wikimatrix.org/syntax.php?i=27
http://www.wikicreole.org/
4. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by _tom (admin) Dec 20, 2012
- 2112 views
The documentation has many instances of ~-- which is used for the "m-dash".
5. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 20, 2012
- 2163 views
The documentation has many instances of ~-- which is used for the "m-dash".
Really? Because I didn't see any.
I saw a lot of (non-Creole) examples which used -- for strike through. My proposal, if it wasn't clear, was to use -- as em-dash and Euphoria comments, and switch to some other markup for strike through.
It's very annoying to write or read a post with the symbol -- striking out the rest of the text unintentionally.
See for example this post and this post. Now I know that I'm not the only person getting bit by this feature by forgetting to put a tilde before a double dash when what I want is a double dash. It's a very common idiom in internet fora.
6. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by _tom (admin) Dec 20, 2012
- 2145 views
For example refman2.txt has thirteen uses of ~-- representing the m-dash.
But, I agree that it is easier for me to change the documentation than to have accidental strikeouts in the forum.
Deliberate use of -- for "strikeout" does not occur in the documentation.
7. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 20, 2012
- 2199 views
I didn't realize that you were referring to the manual. I thought that you meant the Creole standard. My mistake!
Yes, the occurrences in the manual would have to be changed for consistency.
The reason I haven't opened a ticket is because I thought that I would throw the issue out for discussion first. I realize that there is a possibility that not everyone would agree with the change, or that there may be aspects to this that I have missed.
But I've been using this forum for quite awhile, even if I no longer post much, and since the introduction of Creole to Euphoria this one tag has often bothered me.
8. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2311 views
I didn't realize that you were referring to the manual. I thought that you meant the Creole standard. My mistake!
Yes, the occurrences in the manual would have to be changed for consistency.
The reason I haven't opened a ticket is because I thought that I would throw the issue out for discussion first. I realize that there is a possibility that not everyone would agree with the change, or that there may be aspects to this that I have missed.
But I've been using this forum for quite awhile, even if I no longer post much, and since the introduction of Creole to Euphoria this one tag has often bothered me.
I was the one that implemented, and designed the extensions, to the creole parser we have here are OpenEuphoria. One of those extensions is strikethru rendering. The published Creole specification does not include strikethru, I decided that it was an omission (other markups have it) and that it was easy to do. I decided on the double dash '--' token because it is used in some other wikis and seemed fairly obvious/intuitive.
Remember that Creole has nothing to do with Euphoria. It is a general purpose markup language that can be used for multiple purposes. The fact that Euphoria's comments begin with a double dash is a coincidence.
The creole parser has the facility to disallow strikethru (and any of the other text decoration styles). This is set by a specific call to the parser from the hosting environment, but this hasn't be used by the EuForum application.
Eg.
creole_parse(Disallow, MU_Strikethru)
Oh, and by the way, you can 'escape' the strikethru effect by preceding a double-dash with a tilde, such as ~--, which causes the strikethru to be avoided.
9. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2118 views
I was the one that implemented, and designed the extensions, to the creole parser we have here are OpenEuphoria. One of those extensions is strikethru rendering. The published Creole specification does not include strikethru, I decided that it was an omission (other markups have it) and that it was easy to do. I decided on the double dash '--' token because it is used in some other wikis and seemed fairly obvious/intuitive.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I find the logic here very agreeable.
Still, I don't recall that we voted on or even discussed this particular component before we adopted your Creole engine.
Assuming that's true, it means that we might end up going back and revisiting certain decisions as time goes on and minor issues crop up here and there.
Remember that Creole has nothing to do with Euphoria. It is a general purpose markup language that can be used for multiple purposes. The fact that Euphoria's comments begin with a double dash is a coincidence.
Oh, and by the way, you can 'escape' the strikethru effect by preceding a double-dash with a tilde, such as ~--, which causes the strikethru to be avoided.
Agreed, and the fact that the double dash is also used to pass in GNU-style long parameter names is another coincidence.
Still, even though the origins of the usage of the double dash are unrelated, the end result can be confusing. What is the probability that someone who uses the double dash intends it to represent a GNU-style long parameter, an Euphorian comment, a strikethru, or something else?
If the usage of strikethru on this forum is very low, then maybe it is ok to breka with other (presumbly non-Creole) wikis and use a more obscure token for it.
The creole parser has the facility to disallow strikethru (and any of the other text decoration styles). This is set by a specific call to the parser from the hosting environment, but this hasn't be used by the EuForum application.
Eg.
creole_parse(Disallow, MU_Strikethru)
Shouldn't it have the facility to change the strikethru character as well?
10. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2135 views
Still, I don't recall that we voted on or even discussed this particular component before we adopted your Creole engine.
Assuming that's true, it means that we might end up going back and revisiting certain decisions as time goes on and minor issues crop up here and there.
The creole parser is open source, so do what you wish with it. The creation of it was not subject to committee, just a lone wolf affair.
Agreed, and the fact that the double dash is also used to pass in GNU-style long parameter names is another coincidence.
Still, even though the origins of the usage of the double dash are unrelated, the end result can be confusing. What is the probability that someone who uses the double dash intends it to represent a GNU-style long parameter, an Euphorian comment, a strikethru, or something else?
If the usage of strikethru on this forum is very low, then maybe it is ok to breka with other (presumbly non-Creole) wikis and use a more obscure token for it.
The mark up language is for text. If your document contains non-text, such as code, that code should be excluded from markup processing. To not do that is an improper usage of the mark up document. If that requires care on the part of the document author, then so be it. Just as it requires authors to take care of other aspects of the document rending.
Shouldn't it have the facility to change the strikethru character as well?
Why?
But more to the point with this specific implmentation, it takes some special code to disabiguate strikethru tags and horizontal line tags. A HR tag is a line that consists of three or more consecutive dashes, surrounded by optional whitespace. When the parser comes across a dash, it must check that its not a HR tag first, and if not it can check if its a strikethru tag.
11. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2119 views
The mark up language is for text. If your document contains non-text, such as code, that code should be excluded from markup processing. To not do that is an improper usage of the mark up document. If that requires care on the part of the document author, then so be it. Just as it requires authors to take care of other aspects of the document rending.
I agree with you here, but given the nature of this forum and the fact that euphoria line comments use the same markup, it's asking for confusion and mistakes. I'm not sure if there's something better to change it to, or if we even really want to at this point.
Matt
12. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by _tom (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2118 views
Reminding people to use preview before post may be all we need.
after seeing strike out
in the preview the "escape ~" notation ~-- should be easy enough to remember.
Changes to try:
- Add a --strike out-- reminder to the "common formatting:" hints above.
- Change the options to preview, post unformatted, post creole
13. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2134 views
The creole parser is open source, so do what you wish with it. The creation of it was not subject to committee, just a lone wolf affair.
I do recall that there was widespread agreement to adopt the Creole engine, as a whole.
I'm glad that you've given me your blessing to do willy-nilly with the forum and the wiki and elsewhere, but I'd prefer that we have the same level of agreement (or at least a vote called and held) on this issue before such a fundamental change to such a long-standing feature of the site is made.
Shouldn't it have the facility to change the strikethru character as well?
Why?
Well, to make it easier to customize, and get it used elsewhere besides this forum software.
Also, it makes it slightly easier to tweak the forum when the community decides it's necessary or desirable to do so, but that's a rather minor point.
But more to the point with this specific implmentation, it takes some special code to disabiguate strikethru tags and horizontal line tags. A HR tag is a line that consists of three or more consecutive dashes, surrounded by optional whitespace. When the parser comes across a dash, it must check that its not a HR tag first, and if not it can check if its a strikethru tag.
Understood. I'm satisfied with that.
The mark up language is for text. If your document contains non-text, such as code, that code should be excluded from markup processing. To not do that is an improper usage of the mark up document. If that requires care on the part of the document author, then so be it. Just as it requires authors to take care of other aspects of the document rending.
I agree with you here, but given the nature of this forum and the fact that euphoria line comments use the same markup, it's asking for confusion and mistakes.
Seconded.
I'm not sure if there's something better to change it to, or if we even really want to at this point.
Matt
Me either. After all, it's already been in place for several years...
14. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2125 views
Reminding people to use preview before post may be all we need.
after seeing strike out
in the preview the "escape ~" notation ~-- should be easy enough to remember.
Changes to try:
- Add a --strike out-- reminder to the "common formatting:" hints above.
I like these.
- Change the options to preview, post unformatted, post creole
I thought about adding a more complex render that could allow one to post via Creole, BBCode (or at lest BBCode-ish), and an HTML-like superset. It'd be a lot of work, but a lot more flexible.
15. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 21, 2012
- 2101 views
The request was more related to the behavior of this forum than to other uses of Creole in Euphoria. I mean, sure, the parser is open source and I can change it for my own uses of Creole if I choose, but this forum is the only place I ever use Creole. And I cannot change the forum software or behavior on my own.
So to clarify and reiterate, can we swap the meaning of "~--" and "--" in the Creole parser specifically as it pertains to this forum, in order to allow for more natural typing and to eliminate one source of minor confusion? That's the easiest solution IMO, other than not changing it at all.
16. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by ne1uno Dec 21, 2012
- 2105 views
The request was more related to the behavior of this forum than to other uses of Creole in Euphoria. I mean, sure, the parser is open source and I can change it for my own uses of Creole if I choose, but this forum is the only place I ever use Creole. And I cannot change the forum software or behavior on my own.
So to clarify and reiterate, can we swap the meaning of "~--" and "--" in the Creole parser specifically as it pertains to this forum, in order to allow for more natural typing and to eliminate one source of minor confusion? That's the easiest solution IMO, other than not changing it at all.
swapping the meaning of the tilde for this one item seems like the worst possible idea to me.
the point is, if people use <eucode> blocks for code, something they should always do for code so it is colorized and offset, like it always was in the euforum, then there is no problem with mangled euphoria comments.
any number of other punctuation will also be rendered in unexpected ways if you are want to ignore creole.
what about a checkbox, default to be selected in a user profile, like pasty has: use creole, don't use creole, plaintext. which just wrapps automatically your post in triple braces or in an <eucode> block?
17. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 21, 2012
- 2171 views
swapping the meaning of the tilde for this one item seems like the worst possible idea to me.
Can you articulate why? And note -- it's not just the tilde alone, but the three character sequence of tilde-dash-dash.
the point is, if people use <eucode> blocks for code, something they should always do for code so it is colorized and offset, like it always was in the euforum, then there is no problem with mangled euphoria comments.
Agreed, but it still happens. The main thing is that I like to type "--" in the middle of writing plain text. Of course, I doubt that I'll ever forget to use the tilde again, but it seems pretty apparent that others will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment
any number of other punctuation will also be rendered in unexpected ways if you are want to ignore creole.
Examples?
what about a checkbox, default to be selected in a user profile, like pasty has: use creole, don't use creole, plaintext. which just wrapps automatically your post in triple braces or in an <eucode> block?
For that we may as well just use triple braces, which is still less natural.
So someone new to the forum comes up and starts typing and includes -- somewhere in his or her text and gets a surprise.
Someone mentioned that the use of "--" as strikethru should probably be displayed in the Common Formatting section of the reply window. That would be an improvement too. At least people could see the reason for the gotcha instead of being confused.
18. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2103 views
swapping the meaning of the tilde for this one item seems like the worst possible idea to me.
Can you articulate why? And note -- it's not just the tilde alone, but the three character sequence of tilde-dash-dash.
The tilde is the escape character for creole markup. It says, "Hey, this next character after me? Ignore any special creole meaning it might have and just print it." Using it in the way that you have proposed seems like the opposite of it being an escape character and I think that would be more confusing than the status quo.
Matt
19. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2109 views
The main thing is that I like to type "--" in the middle of writing plain text. Of course, I doubt that I'll ever forget to use the tilde again, but it seems pretty apparent that others will.
I promise that I will.
20. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2096 views
swapping the meaning of the tilde for this one item seems like the worst possible idea to me.
Can you articulate why? And note -- it's not just the tilde alone, but the three character sequence of tilde-dash-dash.
The tilde is the escape character for creole markup. It says, "Hey, this next character after me? Ignore any special creole meaning it might have and just print it." Using it in the way that you have proposed seems like the opposite of it being an escape character and I think that would be more confusing than the status quo.
Matt
I agree, though this doesn't rule out some other format for the strikethru and letting both ~-- and -- be the double dash/em-dash. But I don't think we should violate the Creole markup standard for the tilde.
21. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 21, 2012
- 2108 views
Fair enough, I had missed your comment above, Matt. I would still prefer a change from -- but I know that it's unlikely.
Putting the tilde and the strike thru description in the "common formatting" help text would be a good solution.
22. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 21, 2012
- 2121 views
Actually, looking at the Wiki Creole cheat sheet, I see no reference to the tilde being reserved for anything. It's not part of the official Wiki Creole standard.
Just pointing that out.
23. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2133 views
Actually, looking at the Wiki Creole cheat sheet, I see no reference to the tilde being reserved for anything. It's not part of the official Wiki Creole standard.
Just pointing that out.
It's in Creole 1.0 (from July 2007) (but seemingly missing from Creole 0.6)
24. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2224 views
Fair enough, I had missed your comment above, Matt. I would still prefer a change from -- but I know that it's unlikely.
Perhaps it would help if someone suggested alternatives?
Putting the tilde and the strike thru description in the "common formatting" help text would be a good solution.
I'll still make this mistake though, but I agree that it'll more or less solve the problem for everyone else.
25. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by jaygade Dec 21, 2012
- 2169 views
Actually, looking at the Wiki Creole cheat sheet, I see no reference to the tilde being reserved for anything. It's not part of the official Wiki Creole standard.
Just pointing that out.
It's in Creole 1.0 (from July 2007) (but seemingly missing from Creole 0.6)
That's interesting that it's not on their front page. I dug around and saw proposals but not that it was actually implemented.
What a hot mess. *smh*
26. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2082 views
It seems to me now, that the most common problem with strikethru that some people are having is when they type -- on a line without any matching -- on the same line. It would be relatively easy to ensure that text decorations like bold/italic/strikethru/supscript/subscript must have their start and end tags in the same line of document text.
27. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) Dec 21, 2012
- 2081 views
I'm glad that you've given me your blessing to do willy-nilly with the forum and the wiki and elsewhere ...
No blessing intended or implied. Just reminding us all of some facts.
28. Re: Creole markup strikethrough
- Posted by GreenEuphorian Dec 21, 2012
- 2078 views
- Last edited Dec 22, 2012
I agree that the -- marker for the strikethrough had better be replaced. Just today, it also happened to me involuntarily. But I don't agree that "~--" should be used, because the character ~ is not present on all keyboard layouts, and thus it would be very inconvenient/impossible for some people to use it.
